Dating Pots

[Sigmania]

Since I’ve leaned how to date these pots it seems that quite often the pot date is a month or two before the production code of the body and neck. Seems to fit pretty well and makes perfect sense since the pots are not made in house.

But occasionally there are guitars that are out of sequence and I can only guess as to why.

Here’s one with a pot date of August 1983 and production code on the neck of September. Body was repainted so I can’t see if it matches but assume that it does.

Tokai Silver Star TSS38 '83 Vintage MIJ ST Type Electric Guitar Made in Japan | eBay

 

[Sigmania]

Good guitar to show how all the pieces fell together for me.

SN 217437

January 1987 pot dates
February Body/neck codes
Six digit serial number that aligns with other findings also placing it as a 1987 Goldstar.

Note that as of February it still has a brass ground plate. They vanish shortly after this.

NGD Early 80's Tokai Goldstar ST50

 

[Sigmania]

Here's an early one. May 1982

1982 ST100 OW

Looks like it was completely original with VS-1 pickups.

Pot dates May 1982

Production date September

Neck: 9=26
Body: 9=1

Tokai Springy Sound

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Re 'GF' pots... (Spoiler: No real news here)

I don't think the GF labeled pots are made by Gotoh. I originally thought they were but sent Gotoh an e-mail in 2020: and they said they don't make pots. They might be made or distributed by Hayashi Shokai, who seems to supply a lot of the other parts like knobs and switches on newer Tokai guitars, but their pots don't have the GF label. HAYASHI-SHOKAI OFFICIAL WEB SITE

Below is the e-mail I received from Gotoh.

Checking their website, Hayashi Shokai is manufacturing plastic parts and obviously distributes other components as well (similar to Hosco). I don't think they make pots and currently don't even offer GF pots (just generic, "rubber stamped" pots).

An Italian Gotoh distributor asked Gotoh too, and their answer looked like it contained a hint:

https://musicgallery.it/2021/09/17/gotoh-potentiometers/?lang=en


First off, what they wrote there is true: A lot of stores sell pots and switches that Gotoh apparently never made, like the famous 'DM' series pickup selector switches as "Gotoh" and even use the Gotoh logo. AliExpress has a store explaining that GF means "Guitar Family" and assuring that they are made by Gotoh.

Gotoh's guess is that there is another company named Goto (without the h at the end) making these parts. That sounds plausible but I'm afraid this is a red herring too: I can't find a Japanese "Goto" company making potentiometers and switches. Goto Denshi in Yamagata is into audio components like prefab coils etc. but it doesn't look like they make pots. So it remains a mystery, the only sure thing is that Gotoh is not into electronics and even their foray into pickups was rather short (1988-93).

 

[Sigmania]

I’m not sure I’m following you.

Goto/Gotoh made pickups that appear at times in Tokais from 1979 into the early 2000s. They are clearly marked and were put in at the factory.







Tokai Humbucker Models & Resistance



Green & Yellow Wire Gotoh Humbuckers MK2? MK3?

And the GF stamped pickups, whoever made them, were put in guitars from the Tokai factory beginning around 2008 or so. I doubt those were counterfeit in any way. Still no idea who made them.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Apparently, Goto ≠ Gotoh. I always thought that this is just 2 ways to spell the name of the same company too but it seems it's not: I added a screenshot to my previous post with the text off that Italian distributor page, what they are saying is basically that another company named Goto may have made the pots.

Gotohs reply to lincolnr says something similar:

In addition, there is a possibility that it is made by another company GOTOH Pickup that manufactures pickup.

They seem to say that the pots may have been made by the same company that also made the Goto (the Gotoh guy added the 'h' again, likely in error) pickups. So the "goto" labeled pickups in the early Tokais may have been made by that company, not Gotoh. Since Goto Denshi still is doing something with coils, that may have been the one (I just asked them via email, as per usual with little hope for a reply).

According to Gotoh they made pickups only from 1988 to 1993:

https://g-gotoh.com/company-profile/?lang=en


So if their timeline is correct, there were two companies with almost the same name in that business, and this got (understandably) mixed up thoroughly outside (maybe even inside) Japan.

I should add that you may have misunderstood the AliExpress tangent - that was just to underline how far the claims go that certain pots and switches are made by Gotoh in Gunma prefecture.

 

[Sigmania]

Oh interesting. I had often wondered about the two spellings.

Note that the GOTOH engraved/stamped/etched pickups in LS50 Tokais in 1981 are spelled with the H.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Yeah I hope you didn't expect that these pieces of information will all fall in place nicely. Seriously, like I said, the potentiometer theory is standing on weak legs because the GF pots were made quite recently and there should be a sign of a company named Goto that made them then and about the pickups - you'd expect a company would get their own history right, right? I wonder how they'd explain that one?

One thing is interesting though: The goto PU saying "Patent Applied For" and the GOTOH embossed one have in common that they both look zero like a PAF. The other Goto company suddenly adding a H at the end? Weird stuff.

 

[Sigmania]

Oh, I thought we abandined the idea that GF were made by Gotoh a while back in this thread.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Sure, the alternative idea (seemingly suggested by Gotoh) is that there is that other company that made the other Goto pickups also made the pots.

 

[bblooz]

Yeah, the PUs in my 1980 Reborn Old seem to be all lower-case and missing the "H" as well. To be clear, in the Japanese language, there is never a consonant at the end of a word (with the exception of the letter "N"). So the correct romanization of the Japanese ごと(go-to), doesn't really include the "h" at the end. Someone likely added it to aid in pronunciation for us gaijin (foreigners).

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

To be clear, in the Japanese language, there is never a consonant at the end of a word (with the exception of the letter "N"). So the correct romanization of the Japanese ごと(go-to), doesn't really include the "h" at the end.

That's likely contributing much to the confusion, yes. However, it seemed like Gotoh deliberately added the h so they can be distinguished better when they entered the consumer market in the early 80s (because Goto is one of the most common surnames in Japan).

But it seems the solution may be just as weird as I (mockingly, in disbelief) wrote above:

The other Goto company suddenly adding a H at the end? Weird stuff.

Indeed, it seems the Isesaki Gotos were not the only Gotos having that idea!

First it turned out the old "Patent Applied For made by goto" stamped pickups were not exclusively used by Tokai - the net has it that they were found in axes by Ibanez (so Fujigen) and several Matsumoku brands (but also Fernandes), probably even earlier than '78/79. With so much pointing to Nagano prefecture, googling "gotoh pickups matsumoto" brought up nothing but the Gunma Gotoh Guts Co. Ltd. with the tuners and all. Trying ゴトーピックアップマツモト popped up this as the first hit:

https://www.gotoh-pickups.jp/company/index.html

GOTOH PICKUPS (GOTO Co., Ltd.)
is a company that manufactures pickups and related parts for electric guitars and basses.

Since our founding in 1966, we have supplied pickups and related parts to many guitar manufacturers. We develop and manufacture products that make use of the know-how we have accumulated. We would like to expand our product lineup so that we can meet more needs.

If you have any requests or suggestions, please feel free to contact us.

In addition, GOTOH PICKUPS (GOTO Co., Ltd.) only sells to dealers, so we
do not sell to end users. Thank you for your understanding.

Credit where credit is due, HAMMAMATSU posted a link to that company here 2 years ago but nobody seemed to notice.



So to summarize what I think is that probably none of the pickups in the Tokais were made by Gotoh Guts Co. Ltd. in Isesaki but by Goto Co. Ltd. in Matsumoto, which renamed themselves to "Gotoh Pickups" at some point in the 80s. Probably safe to say that Gotoh in Isesaki has their history correct, they really didn't make pickups before 1988.

That would also mean that e.g. the Gotoh labeled later Burny PUs were made in Matsumoto and not by Isesaki Gotoh. The latter made the tuners though, and after 1983 maybe also the bridge, but the pickups are from a company with exactly the same name, which is completely independent from the other company. That's Japanese guitars for you...you can't make this stuff up.


Gotoh Pickup factory in Matsumoto

Unfortunately this is basically in the wrong thread, this one is about the pots. The Matsumoto Gotoh website mentions "Manufacture of pickups and related parts for electric guitars and basses",
so the hint the Gotoh (Isesaki) contact gave may be actually a hot scent.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

This hard to find picture from some 2008 blog post seems to indicate that the pickup Gotoh company indeed sold pots at some point:



But then again, I also found this equally solitary pic showing a pot apparently sold by the tuner Gotoh company:



I don't think any of the 2 Gotohs actually made these pots though. This is

 

[Sigmania]

GOTOH VR16 250K Potentiometer Tone Pot For Electric Guitar (Made In Japan) (VR-16) (16mm)

 

[Sigmania]

That same logo with the newer and older looking yellow packaging.

GOTOH VK1-19G – knop ⦰19mm, gat ⦰ 6mm gold 80's Gold | Reverb Australia



GOTOH Vk1-19 Domed Guitar Knob for 6mm Diameter Pots - Gold for sale online | eBay

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

The first pic would be an example for what the Italian guys wrote, that everyone slaps the (Gunma) Gotoh logo on their ads. I posted the 2 pot pics because they look kind of "official" and that looks (very confusingly and contrary to what Gunma Gotoh said) like both Gotohs distributed pots at some point. Not hard to imagine in how many ways the wrong Gotoh logo could've ended up on ads then. Unfortunately the pics don't show the pot back and stamping.

Not sure what you mean "the same logo" - the last 2 pics are what I'd expect from Gunma Gotoh, metal parts with their logo on it. If you refer to the yellow "bag topper" (took me half an hour to google what these things are called ), that's confusingly a yellow topper on the pot from Nagano Gotoh as well but it's the same "P.U GOTOH" print they use on their pickup boxes.

However, I suspect there may be also a logic/semantics problem... if both (the Italians and lincolnr) asked Gotoh (doesn't matter which one) if they make or made pots the only correct answer might be "no". Had they asked whether or not they distributed or sold pots as a wholesaler, the reply may or may not have been different. Well, at the end this is not a crucial information because knowing who made them doesn't help with dating them. The takeaway from all this is that there are actually 2 Gotoh companies, one making mechanical hardware partsand the other making pickups.

 

[Sigmania]

Just spotted these in a listing for a SIlver Star.

Looks like a GF pot.

TOKAI エレキギター SILVER STAR シリアルNo900 ... - ヤフオク!

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Indeed, the part # brings up Shimamura and Ishibashi selling those "SCUD" labeled bags with "domestic" pots and HOSCO listing the part number. Apparently "SCUD" also sells CTS.

Here you can see clearly that they're GF:

 

[Sigmania]

Do the sites selling these have any info on who made them?

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

No, should've mentioned that but I checked (of course) and "domestic" is all there is.