Production Process and Codes On ST Bolt On Models
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Homer J. Simpson
Well-known member
Good question... weight?
With the possibility of the ST codes being #Month = #Order of that month ..... it might be worth logging known codes against year of manufacture
In the period that Tokai appeared to be making a lot of guitars up to 82 and later in the 80s, you would expect to find examples of higher 2nd number eg 5=30 (30th order of May) whereas 1982/83 guitars may show a lack of higher 2nd numbers reflecting a lack of orders due to the customs issues. Obviously a 6=60 block logo would blow that theory out of the water but I've never seen a block logo with the 2nd number over 12. There's an 82 spag logo guitar bought in Japan with code 11=13 (L04352) but that would be a Japanese order.
Two codes on the same guitar - maybe borrowing from other orders.
The guitar below is the 81 serial block logo 1=1
First order of Jan 82 - would explain why it still has the 81 serial.
https://www.tokaiforum.com/threads/metallic-green-gallery.26372/post-205665
In the period that Tokai appeared to be making a lot of guitars up to 82 and later in the 80s, you would expect to find examples of higher 2nd number eg 5=30 (30th order of May) whereas 1982/83 guitars may show a lack of higher 2nd numbers reflecting a lack of orders due to the customs issues. Obviously a 6=60 block logo would blow that theory out of the water but I've never seen a block logo with the 2nd number over 12. There's an 82 spag logo guitar bought in Japan with code 11=13 (L04352) but that would be a Japanese order.
Two codes on the same guitar - maybe borrowing from other orders.
The guitar below is the 81 serial block logo 1=1
First order of Jan 82 - would explain why it still has the 81 serial.
https://www.tokaiforum.com/threads/metallic-green-gallery.26372/post-205665
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Ever seen one in the neck pocket before?
https://reverb.com/uk/item/62276293...t-era-vintage-brazilian-rosewood-mij-flagship
https://reverb.com/uk/item/62276293...t-era-vintage-brazilian-rosewood-mij-flagship
I think the K stamp may mean cashew. Not sure why the neck doesn't have it though?
A is lacquer I believe.
J may mean Jacaranda instead of Jaco?
Neck swap? Special order change?
April and then May when the latest stamp on the body was done. The cashew process is lengthy, but again not sure why the neck has a different finish apparently?
1981 Tokai Jazz Sound jb120 fender 1964 replica jv bass lawsuit era vintage brazilian rosewood mij flagship | Reverb
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Also, if the second number is an order, then why does this one guitar have 3 different ones if it was built together? 3, 4, and 12.
And if it is wood lots, why does the body have two different ones?? 3 and 12 ??
And if it is wood lots, why does the body have two different ones?? 3 and 12 ??
Body left over from a previous order for some reason? Stamped a new code where there was space when mated next April with a new neck?
Maybe adding to codes was just updating them and looked better and less hassle than crossing them out.
Homer J. Simpson
Well-known member
This Breezy has a different "lot" number in the neck PU cavity (10=9) than in the control cavity (10=8) too. The neck is stamped 10=6 though, and it has what looks like a K (but that would be upside down).
Either that's not a K (probably not), or K doesn't mean Cashew, because if you look at the guitar (it's a TE70 and check the binding color) it doesn't have a Cashew finish.
That multiple "lot code" thing seems to have happened seldomly, so it could just be a neat way of correcting an error indeed - otherwise it could mean that the whole "lot" idea/information from Tokai is either bogus or we obviously don't have the right idea what the (S.Adachi) meant by "lot". Duh!
If it doesn't refer to an obscure (and meaningless) internal logistics thing anyway - I have mentioned that in some lengthy speculation post before - it could make a little more sense if the number meant "customer" (store, store chain, distributor, importer...) rather than "order number", but ATO mentioned that the numbers go pretty high on some UK market guitars, and there was only one importer/distributor in the UK? Would they have collected orders from UK stores until a container was filled or a certain number of guitars was reached, or would they have ordered them separately in Japan so they got different order numbers and were shipped separately?
(I wish we could get a hold of Eric Dixon and ask him a couple of questions)
Either that's not a K (probably not), or K doesn't mean Cashew, because if you look at the guitar (it's a TE70 and check the binding color) it doesn't have a Cashew finish.
That multiple "lot code" thing seems to have happened seldomly, so it could just be a neat way of correcting an error indeed - otherwise it could mean that the whole "lot" idea/information from Tokai is either bogus or we obviously don't have the right idea what the (S.Adachi) meant by "lot". Duh!
If it doesn't refer to an obscure (and meaningless) internal logistics thing anyway - I have mentioned that in some lengthy speculation post before - it could make a little more sense if the number meant "customer" (store, store chain, distributor, importer...) rather than "order number", but ATO mentioned that the numbers go pretty high on some UK market guitars, and there was only one importer/distributor in the UK? Would they have collected orders from UK stores until a container was filled or a certain number of guitars was reached, or would they have ordered them separately in Japan so they got different order numbers and were shipped separately?
(I wish we could get a hold of Eric Dixon and ask him a couple of questions)
Homer J. Simpson
Well-known member
These slips could be directly related to that. I've tried half of the evening to figure out what the last character in the second column could mean and couldn't find it, that could contain a deciding clue. The number preceding it could relate to the "lot" number.
If you look at the whole image and check the wood around the bottom strap pin hole, it looks like "1/2" and "2/2" mean "1-piece body, 2-piece top" and "2-piece body, 2-piece top".
If you look at the whole image and check the wood around the bottom strap pin hole, it looks like "1/2" and "2/2" mean "1-piece body, 2-piece top" and "2-piece body, 2-piece top".
That is not a K..... Or more specifically not a K stamp. So apples and oranges.This Breezy has a different "lot" number in the neck PU cavity (10=9) than in the control cavity (10=8) too. The neck is stamped 10=6 though, and it has what looks like a K (but that would be upside down).
View attachment 39434
Either that's not a K (probably not), or K doesn't mean Cashew, because if you look at the guitar (it's a TE70 and check the binding color) it doesn't have a Cashew finish.
That multiple "lot code" thing seems to have happened seldomly, so it could just be a neat way of correcting an error indeed - otherwise it could mean that the whole "lot" idea/information from Tokai is either bogus or we obviously don't have the right idea what the (S.Adachi) meant by "lot". Duh!
If it doesn't refer to an obscure (and meaningless) internal logistics thing anyway - I have mentioned that in some lengthy speculation post before - it could make a little more sense if the number meant "customer" (store, store chain, distributor, importer...) rather than "order number", but ATO mentioned that the numbers go pretty high on some UK market guitars, and there was only one importer/distributor in the UK? Would they have collected orders from UK stores until a container was filled or a certain number of guitars was reached, or would they have ordered them separately in Japan so they got different order numbers and were shipped separately?
(I wish we could get a hold of Eric Dixon and ask him a couple of questions)
My Cashew finished TE120 has a K stamp. I have seen others. I think it is cashew, but still looking for examples.
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I personally don't think the second number is a customer order number. If it were one guitar would not be on two orders for two different customers.
Similarly, I don't think it refers to a lot of wood. Again, a one piece neck cannot be from two different piece of wood.
I think it has to be something related to process. As in steps in a process or department or work team or something like that.
As an aside, when I was in business school in the 80s there was a lot of focus on Japanese business practices. A huge part of it was work groups or teams. Something I had not considered until now. It is a way of taking ownership and ensuring quality over quantity as well as taking accountability.
The mystery of the second number is still unresolved in my opinion.
Similarly, I don't think it refers to a lot of wood. Again, a one piece neck cannot be from two different piece of wood.
I think it has to be something related to process. As in steps in a process or department or work team or something like that.
As an aside, when I was in business school in the 80s there was a lot of focus on Japanese business practices. A huge part of it was work groups or teams. Something I had not considered until now. It is a way of taking ownership and ensuring quality over quantity as well as taking accountability.
The mystery of the second number is still unresolved in my opinion.
I see what you mean but at the same time these are oddities that occur in a very small amount of stamps that we've seen. The bulk orders from Blue Suede can clearly be seen and the codes can be predicted from serials as there was just one importer.
The codes clump together 11=12 and 12=6 in 1982, 5=12 in 1983. Prob 10=6 in 1981. These are all guitars imported into the UK at the same time.
There must have been errors and parts borrowed from other orders and the odd stamps may be a result.
I haven't seen high 2nd numbers in the UK, from what I've seen the high ones are mainly 1978 guitars and likely to be domestic Japanese sales.
Can't see that we'll find out for sure unless someone turns up who actually knows.
Homer J. Simpson
Well-known member
Yeah I probably cross-wired 2 separate posts of yours in my brain, 1981 has one =50 (!) and there are =40 and =42 in other years.
Neither do I, I just tried to speculate more on what could be an explanation for 2 different numbers (or even 3!) showing up on the same guitar, and I was hoping it was obvious that I'm only juggling ideas there.
That the "lot" number(s) is(are) on the guitar in first place only looks like it must have something to do with the production and specification, I think that's the whole basis for the idea that it may be connected with specific orders (or customers), so they know "this neck was produced for this order and is meant to have these features" etc.
My initial idea for the double numbers (posted a few months ago) was that production for specific orders could be bundled, particularly if they are consecutive or amended orders for the same customer. So the double stamp (or the '&' between lot numbers) connects these separate orders for production and delivery to the same recipient.
(Didn't just someone notice that they're often only one number apart?)
The "customer number" theory would actually be completely bogus because if parts production for specific customers would've been bundled I would assume that there would be much more of these double numbers, and then there should be also triple, quadruple... numbers (because they all order the same guitars).
But what happened when the guitars were assembled and the numbers no longer visible? How did they know which guitar was for which order then? I have not specifically studied the factory images for signs of tags etc. identifying guitars but I don't remember seeing anything like this I think?
Yes. I had noticed that and tried to figure what sorts of things would span two consecutive things in one guitar.
Also, these photos always intrigued me. Still not sure if it relates at all.
Tokai Factories in Hamamatsu, Japan
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