Production Process and Codes On ST Bolt On Models

[Sigmania]

This Breezy has a different "lot" number in the neck PU cavity (10=9) than in the control cavity (10=8) too. The neck is stamped 10=6 though, and it has what looks like a K (but that would be upside down).

I think it is probably more of a star shape, or a Japanese character.

Here is one that is more intact.

84 Tokai Goldstar Sound Strat MIJ Made in Japan Stratocaster Extra Tokai Bridge | Reverb

The "H" looking symbol in pencil has a name as well, but I don't recall what I was told that it is.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I know they first looked like they did relate, when looked them up again recently (when I posted the body storage pics with the paper slips taped to them) I figured the numbers on the lumber blanks don't relate to the "lot" numbers.

Remember the rack with the finished looking strat necks on page 1 of this thread?

https://www.tokaiforum.com/threads/...codes-on-st-bolt-on-models.27619/#post-207914
I don't know why all these half-finished Strat (-ish, many 22 fret "overhang" necks among them) necks are parking on that rack (which still has little tape labels saying "LC" "ES" "LS"... BTW!), but very few of them seem to have a production stamp, most look unfretted, some seem to have frets. That looks like some necks were already finished for final production of the guitar, but they were returned to that rack with the half-finished necks for later reusage. That could explain necks like this:



The unstamped, half-finished necks on the rack also seem to indicate that the "month" number is not directly connected to the time of the parts production - the neck stamps go on the necks only while they get finished for an actual order. So the "month" numbers go into the guitars only during final production and (speculation) are therefore more connected to the lot number than anything else. In other words, if the lot number refers to an order, it would indeed confirm the "n-th order of the month X" theory.

But we don't know the actual meaning of that rack, and another point (AFAIK) not much accounted for so far is that the pictures are all relatively young and the guitars we're trying to figure out are much older than the pics - production planning, the order of production steps, tracking/labeling methods and logistics may have been different 45 years ago. On top of that, the old parts in question may have been produced at a different place than the place on the pics. So that theory may sound really plausible but it might still be pretty far-fetched to declare it confirmed based on modern images.

The mystery of the second number is still unresolved in my opinion.

Of course it is, there is a "working theory" to play with (which we do) but that will remain just a theory until we see proof in form of order books showing "lot" numbers, or other documents or reliable oral testimony explaining what "lot" actually meant. IOW, trying to guess this "lot" thing is probably a waste of time.

Edit: The neck pictured above has such a sharpie mark too, it just looked a bit like a botched K stamp on the other pic.

 

[Sigmania]

Of course it is, there is a "working theory" to play with (which we do) but that will remain just a theory until we see proof in form of order books showing "lot" numbers, or other documents or reliable oral testimony explaining what "lot" actually meant.

I asked about that too when tokaiaustralia was going to visit.

If someone was visiting the factory next week..

This is what he posted when he returned:

Tokai Factory Pics

I believe he told me that those things were discarded. But then I keep seeing NOS items surfacing from the factory and old repair items from decades ago and have to wonder if they may still be out there somewhere.

 

[Sigmania]

Another one with the star thingy. Pretty common. Not sure what it indicates.

Vintage 1984 Tokai Goldstar Sound 50s Reissue Olympic White Stratocaster -

 

[Sigmania]

Interesting one spanning 2 months, but second number is the same.

Also a mixed symbols code. - and .

NGD: '84 Tokai Goldstar Sound - NZGuitars.com

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Interesting one spanning 2 months, but second number is the same.

Yeah forgot those, maybe because they are so rare but IIRC (maybe not) ATO mentioned one of those earlier or elsewhere, or it was you idk... and I have one too (1981, NST: 11=5 and BST: 12=5)... but that means that...

So the "month" numbers go into the guitars only during final production and (speculation) are therefore more connected to the lot number than anything else. In other words, if the lot number refers to an order, it would indeed confirm the "n-th order of the month X" theory.

... isn't quite right (or just plain wrong). Let's still assume "lot" means order:

The parts were obviously stamped before they were sent over to the paint shop (at least that's what we deduce from the stamps having color codes). That means the workers who finished the parts to that point knew for what order they are. In my example (#1024464), the neck was ready for spraying let's say Monday, November 30th, so it got the 11=5, the body was finished only Tuesday, December 1st and therefore got the 12=5.

So for which month was that order #5? Obviously for November, right? Hm...1981, the year of "monthly order numbers" going up to (known) 13 in summer, not sure if Christmas increases demand for replica guitars... and they were processing order #5 so late that the the body got sprayed in December. Could be, we don't know how much backlog they had... but apart from the one =35, 40, 42 outliers in 1978, the lot numbers rarely go beyond 20 and that would mean they had at best 20 different customers worldwide per month after 1978? Doesn't that sound unlikely?

That's where "lot" as in "lot" could make (maybe even a lot of) sense: Customer #10 wants 20 ST50s, customer #16 wants 30, customer #31 orders 40, customer #1 wants 100 ST42s and everyone wants 10 ST60s and 5 ST80s... that's where you could bundle the production of the ST42s and ST50s to a "lot" and the production of the ST60s and 80s to another lot. Same goes for all other models, they are produced in bigger lots (just another word for "batches", right?), which may explain relatively low lot numbers and what looks like burst-like patterns.

One advantage could be that producing certain models in bigger chunks avoids changing jigs, tools, CNC programs and tool heads 5 times a day etc. The contents (models) within each lot could be distributed differently of course, and I have no idea how the double numbers could fit into this scheme. Studying ATO's list, it actually looks a bit like groups with the same stamps are similar or the same models. We need more samples!

Unfortunately, no factory video and no amount of googling has brought up anything to learn about planning and logistics of industrial guitar mass-production so far.

 

[ATO]

Would be interesting to know their production capacity and how many guitars they were actually making at that time.

Wonder how long it would take to get the guitar if someone in Japan ordered directly from the factory, days, weeks or months?

It seems the UK was one of the main markets at the time if not the biggest, hence attention from CBS.

 

[Sigmania]

It’s hard to know. I’ve looked at this before, but one thing I realized is some of the guitars if you look at serial number counts were not labeled Tokai. At different times there were Fernandes and Bradley, etc using the same serial number pool.

Also, they were making Gibson copies which are a whole different batch of numbers, but part of overall production.

Would be good to gather this up at some point. Maybe as an outgrowth of looking at the serial numbers for each year.

I also started doing that for the earliest Springys and Les Paul Reborns. So I have a bunch for 1977/78.

 

[Sigmania]

I remember seeing this a while back for Tokai Gibson copies.

And I have not bothered to check these numbers.

• In 1980, the mark of 10,000 manufactured guitars was reached.
• In 1984, the mark of 20,000 manufactured guitars was reached.
• In 1985, the mark of 30,000 manufactured guitars was reached.

Tokai: Serial for Gibson & Fender Style Models - Vintage Japan Guitars

 

[Sigmania]

It gets confusing fast.

There are ST serial numbers. Which changed quite a bit over the years.

ST Serial Numbering Systems

Then there was a separate count for Hard Punchers as I recall.

And then of course Gibson copies.

 

[ATO]

9009978
Neck 8=5&6
Body 8=7

 

[Sigmania]

My ST100 is from August 1979 a well. Interesting.

But notice how fare apart the serial numbers are. My ST100 had nickel finish hardware instead of the more common gold.

Also notice both are consecutive numbers.

 

[ATO]

Interesting indeed. I've noticed the some ST100 serials seem to follow their own line, especially in 1980

 

[Sigmania]

Interesting indeed. I've noticed the some ST100 serials seem to follow their own line, especially in 1980

Well, my belief is they stamped a stack of gold 00xxxxx neck plates and used that stack through 1980 and into 1981 at least.

 

[Sigmania]

High second number

1978 ST60 YS

Tokai ST-60 Springy Sound | Reverb Canada

 

[Sigmania]

According to Tokai Gakki Co.Lltd, the first digits represent month, the digits after ?=? express a lot number.

felixatus, if you see this could you elaborate on the lot number thing? Still not clear on what this is. Did you get this by contacting them or some other source? Thanks!

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

https://www.tokaiforum.com/threads/tokai-neck-and-body-codes.26270/page-2#post-197105

 

[Sigmania]

I noticed in the letter they never said what the second number was. They clearly say the first one is the month. And my interpretation is they generically say the combination of the 5=14 or whatever is a lot number. I don't see anything saying the second number is a lot number. Would be great if one day someone would clearly say what that second number is....

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

That they didn't explain what that means is why we're (and generations before us) getting our brains in wrinkles here.

 

[Sigmania]

Precisely. And also why I invoked felixcatus to see if there was any more to it than what he had posted. Whatever it is may have simply been overlooked. Worth probing.