Tokai Inlays

[Spider19]

Stop justifying bad inlay work by finding examples that are worse. The reason Tokai got the respect it did in the eighties was that they built guitars well when Gibson and Fender were trading on their name while building crap. It is sad that Tokai seem to be heading the same way. If a guitar costs $3000 then the standard for inlay work is....PERFECT. I have seen bang-on inlay work on guitars costing $500, surely it can be done on a guitar costing six times that amount, and anything less is cutting corners (or rather, not cutting corners and instead routing circles :wink: ). If you are trying to justify it by saying that Brutus will miss out on a great playing guitar just because it has crap inlay work you have to start asking yourself why bother with inlay work at all - let's just make nice playing guitars and paint them all flat black as though appearance doesn't matter. Part of the joy of a top end guitar is the beauty of the woods, hardware, fit and finish, and yes - the inlay work. If all we do is make excuses when it is done badly what is Tokai's incentive to improve?

 

[Diamond]

The reason Tokai got the respect it did in the eighties was that they built guitars well when Gibson and Fender were trading on their name while building crap.

It is sad that Tokai seem to be heading the same way.

Don't be sad, Tokai aren't heading where you think they're heading.

 

[JVsearch]

The fretboard on a near mint '57 linked to elsewhere on the forum:

Again. Not as good inlay work as on the fretboard Diamond posted.

That's actually a bit unfair - those inlays have shrunk over the years.
Along with the binding and any other plastic parts, depending on the environmental conditions the guitar was exposed to.

Only case queens will be perfect in this respect, and there are some of those around.

 

[Leif]

My 30 year old modest Fender acoustic shows no signs of shrinkage. It doesn't sound so good, though I'm not sure it ever did.

My new Taylor guitar has perfect inlay (MOP dots), binding etc. I think these days many manufacturers are moving over to CNC, lasers etc to ensure good fit.

 

[karppi]

My 30 year old modest Fender acoustic shows no signs of shrinkage. It doesn't sound so good, though I'm not sure it ever did.

They changed the inlay material at the very end of 50s or earl 60s if I remebered right. Shrinkaging can be very dramatic indeed: http://www.lespaulforum.com/oldhistoric.html

 

[Mick51]

Great link! Thanks.

 

[Spider19]

Huh, never thought of the the inlays shrinking, I always assumed the fretboard was shrinking. Makes more sense though, if it was the fretboard it would pull away from the edge binding too and I haven't noticed that too often.
Good link.
Do any guitar makers still use inlay material that shrinks with age, and would that explain the filled gaps on those Tokais - and should I be doing something to prevent inlays shrinking on my guitars?

 

[singemonkey]

Funny thing kids. When the inlays shrunk... filler appeared around the gaps. Incredible? Science fiction? No.

Science fact :roll:

Also, that '57 is a "case queen" if ever I saw one.

 

[JVsearch]

Funny thing kids. When the inlays shrunk... filler appeared around the gaps. Incredible? Science fiction? No.

Science fact :roll:

Also, that '57 is a "case queen" if ever I saw one.

There we have it! The absolute 100% guaranteed truth from somebody on the internet looking at a photo... :roll:

 

[singemonkey]

All of this is based on photos from the interwebz. But now on '50s LPs it's just "shrinkage." (which apparently only happens in particular directions which seems strange)

Still waiting for pics of "good" inlays on a production guitar. Making excuses? For what? For the fact that Tokai inlays are sloppier than on some undetermined comparison? :roll:

Maybe they are. I won't deny demonstrated facts. But no one has presented such a thing yet. Put up, or shut up.

 

[looktoyourorb]

Et voila!

Perfect inlays...no filer or drill holes despite the square corners:

As far as I am concerned I have never seen horrible inlays on an MIJ tokai, just drill holes in the corners in some. Were the guitars modified or sold as B stock? If not it is a failure at multiple levels: craftsman, Tokai QC, Tokai distributor, guitar shop and buyer.

It is everyone's responsibility to make sure they filter instruments - this is why shops and distributors get paid their money...I am in the business of importing and working with dealers and believe me they get s**t if they do not add "value" to our brand. Everybody can have a duff product out of a factory, the important part is not to let it out on the market until it is fully acceptable - these inlays are clearly not.

It is also the buyer's responsibility to claim if he/she is not satisfied with the workmanship, this is why warranties are put into place for new products.

If I had shrinkage on mine I would certainly not use filer but pay to have all inlays replaced by a luthier, that's easy enough to do.

 

[JVsearch]

All of this is based on photos from the interwebz. But now on '50s LPs it's just "shrinkage." (which apparently only happens in particular directions which seems strange)

They're known to shrink, that's all there is to it. That explains why I said what I did, rather than jumping to the conclusion that they're badly done inlays with filler around them.

AFAIK, it's usually sunlight that does the damage, the plastic actually disintegrates or breaks down in sunlight. You don't have to play the guitar at all, just let it get some sun, and to be honest, a 53 year old guitar has had plenty of time to do that.

So for me there's nothing scientific about it, just some likely possibilities that lead me to the opinion that those inlays have shrunk...

 

[stratmoto]

As far as I am concerned I have never seen horrible inlays on an MIJ tokai, just drill holes in the corners in some. Were the guitars modified or sold as B stock? If not it is a failure at multiple levels: craftsman, Tokai QC, Tokai distributor, guitar shop and buyer.

It is everyone's responsibility to make sure they filter instruments - this is why shops and distributors get paid their money...I am in the business of importing and working with dealers and believe me they get s**t if they do not add "value" to our brand. Everybody can have a duff product out of a factory, the important part is not to let it out on the market until it is fully acceptable - these inlays are clearly not.

You are absolutely right.

So, the lesson here is do not buy your Tokai from ebay sellers in Japan.

If you want a Tokai with perfect inlays, buy it from a reputable Tokai distributor like you have in South Africa and Australia.

I am talking about new guitars, not 11 year old second hand guitars.

Problem solved.

Thread closed.

How easy was that.

 

[looktoyourorb]

...and if you fancy an 11 year old Tokai go through a reputable person in Japan or buy locally, personally I do not buy used unseen anymore as I had a lemon in the past (not a Tokai though...it was a US made Love Rock copy :wink: )

I have nothing against US guitars btw...they account for 25% of my guitars and the examples I have are great.

 

[Diamond]

As far as I am concerned I have never seen horrible inlays on an MIJ tokai, just drill holes in the corners in some. Were the guitars modified or sold as B stock? If not it is a failure at multiple levels: craftsman, Tokai QC, Tokai distributor, guitar shop and buyer.

It is everyone's responsibility to make sure they filter instruments - this is why shops and distributors get paid their money...I am in the business of importing and working with dealers and believe me they get s**t if they do not add "value" to our brand. Everybody can have a duff product out of a factory, the important part is not to let it out on the market until it is fully acceptable - these inlays are clearly not.

You are absolutely right.

So, the lesson here is do not buy your Tokai from ebay sellers in Japan.

If you want a Tokai with perfect inlays, buy it from a reputable Tokai distributor like you have in South Africa and Australia.

I am talking about new guitars, not 11 year old second hand guitars.

Problem solved.

Thread closed.

How easy was that.

Plus 1.

 

[Leif]

For what it's worth, I received an LS90Q today, with a lemon drop finish, and it was immaculate with not one cosmetic flaw as far as I can see, and the inlay was as good as perfect even though this is the low end MIJ. It is possible they've used filler matching the fretboard at the corners, but if they have, then they've done a very good job, and only an obsessive would notice. I give it top marks. Typical Japanese perfection. I have Japanese cameras, and kitchen knives and they're all top grade. Their sencha tea is really nice too ...

 

[singemonkey]

I looked at some PRSs in the shop the other day. Their inlays were definitely flawless. But they do cost a lot more than Tokais, it must be said.

I still dispute this vintage shrinkage on instruments in good condition. As I mentioned, I would expect the shrinkage to be uniform - not all down one edge. Wouldn't you?

Having seen what's possible, Tokai should be made aware of this concern, and should seriously consider what they could do within reason to finish the corners of their inlays. Their reputation is all about quality after all.

Certainly for LS190+, they should be considering hand finishing the inlay work. That makes perfect sense to me.

The inlay work on my LS150 (with just those little spots of filler on the corners of the inlays) is, however, considerably better than on my 27 year old Gibson - which definitely suffers from filler rather than shrinkage. So I have no concerns, given the price of the guitar.

But as I said, given how Tokai lives or dies by the perceived quality advantage, they should reconsider their approach on their top-end instruments.

 

[Leif]

I looked at some PRSs in the shop the other day. Their inlays were definitely flawless. But they do cost a lot more than Tokais, it must be said.

I still dispute this vintage shrinkage on instruments in good condition. As I mentioned, I would expect the shrinkage to be uniform - not all down one edge. Wouldn't you?

Having seen what's possible, Tokai should be made aware of this concern, and should seriously consider what they could do within reason to finish the corners of their inlays. Their reputation is all about quality after all.

Certainly for LS190+, they should be considering hand finishing the inlay work. That makes perfect sense to me.

The inlay work on my LS150 (with just those little spots of filler on the corners of the inlays) is, however, considerably better than on my 27 year old Gibson - which definitely suffers from filler rather than shrinkage. So I have no concerns, given the price of the guitar.

But as I said, given how Tokai lives or dies by the perceived quality advantage, they should reconsider their approach on their top-end instruments.

Yes, it is not a huge issue, and my lower end MIJ has good inlay work, but certainly an LS150 should have perfect inlays, in my view. They could consider having inlays with rounded corners, allowing them to use CNC routers to cut the fretboard, and avoiding the cost of manual work. There are quite a few threads on this forum about the inlay issue. Of course a solution is to only buy after viewing the instrument in question, or having a trusted dealer who will support our OCD.

 

[looktoyourorb]

True the PRS are great in the little details, corners and recesses but as they are made by CNC machines most of the work time is spent finishing the guitar to perfection.

Having said that I accept my LS150 is x3 times cheaper than my SC245...

 

[JVsearch]

I still dispute this vintage shrinkage on instruments in good condition. As I mentioned, I would expect the shrinkage to be uniform - not all down one edge. Wouldn't you?

It's only known to happen on 50s Les Pauls - the plastic they used was susceptible to degradation under certain conditions. It also has to do with whether the plastic is sealed up with clear coat, such as on the body it doesn't usually shrink, but the neck binding does.

Have you seen the shrunken pick guards on early 60's Fender Jaguars? It's very noticeable on them because of the metal control plates which obviously don't shrink, the pick guards don't meet the edges of the plates by a couple of millimetres.

The reissues of the LP from 68 onwards don't have this problem, so yes, the inlays on your 70s LP are probably just a bit average (like some Tokais and others), not shrunken.

Having seen what's possible, Tokai should be made aware of this concern, and should seriously consider what they could do within reason to finish the corners of their inlays. Their reputation is all about quality after all.

Yep, it can be done by some companies. My Bacchus Vintage Series SG has virtually perfect inlays, although I did recently see a similar Bacchus with the little drilled circles at the corners as well. So it seems that even Bacchus have cut corners using this same method. My 2009 Bacchus Duke has totally perfect inlays but it is a much more expensive guitar compared to an LS-90 type, and actually higher priced than an LS-160, so you would expect top quality.