Tokai Breezysound TE-80 info please

[Udonitron]

3. This guitar has a neck stamp, has neck plate with serial.
Why no body stamp if other stamps/serial are there. Ever seen a 1977-1981 Tokai without a body stamp?

PS I have s 1980 sen ash Tokai TE-55N that I had completely refinished and a 1981 Tokai TE-50BL of which I had the neck refinished. Stamps are still intact, one of them has pencil marks, dito.

So are you disputing that this body with the clearly discernible Tokai routes is not a Tokai?
Or are you saying someone went to great trouble to totally strip all the original lacquer out of the body routes including the stamp?

Ever seen a Tokai prototype body?
If so did it have a body stamp?
If not then how can you dispute it either way unless you know for sure Tokai stamped everything, including their prototypes.

Also, test that heel's lacquer and see if it goes right to bare wood.
I bet you the dude who refinished it sanded the poly down then but left a layer intact to preserve those stamps otherwise they would have sanded off.
Or maybe he didn't sand it at all?
That is one thing about having others do your work, you don't know the details vs doing it yourself

 

[Reborn Old]

Might as well discuss your 1977 LS ? prototype while we're at it.
Two prototypes held by an owner outside of the Adachi family,
what are the odds ?
It must be a prototype just because of the centered tenon and lack of a
diagonal route + ebony board, right ?

Logically, if I owned a guitar company, prototypes would be well documented and locked in a vault for posterity.
If sold, there would be provenance with the one off item in question very much like prototypes in the car industry.
Who knows things might be different in Japan, but I doubt it with LS-200's
often selling at over $6k and the amount of interest surrounding them.

Odds of either of these being prototypes rather than LS pieces stolen from the factory and finished offsite
and a parts caster ... extremely slim to none.

If no neck stamp or inked body stamps on the TE under the clear finished neck pocket why bother with an engraved neck plate
or stamped hand wound TEA pickups or a stamped neck ?
Why does the neck plate look so new compared to the body ?

The "mystery" aspect of both of these guitars suggest shady dealings in the LS model's Japan history, and a modified TE ... to my logic sense anyway.
Anyone know if Tokai sold "bare" replacement necks when people broke their Fender model necks ?

 

[Udonitron]

Might as well discuss your 1977 LS prototype while we're at it.
Two prototypes held by an owner outside of the Adachi family,
what are the odds ?
It has to be a prototype just because of the centered tenon and lack of a
diagonal route + ebony board right ?

Logically, if I owned a guitar company, prototypes would be documented and locked in a vault for posterity.
If sold, there would be provenance with the one off item in question very much like prototypes in the car industry.

Odds of either of these being prototypes rather than LS pieces stolen from the factory and finished offsite and a partscaster
... extremely slim to none.

If no neck stamp or inked body stamps on the TE under the clear finished neck pocket why bother with an engraved neck plate or stamped handwound TEA pickups or a stamped neck ?
Why does the neck plate look so new compared to the body ?
The "mystery" aspect of both of these guitars suggest shady dealings in the LS's Japan history, and a modified TE, to me anyway.
Anyone know if Tokai sold "bare" replacement necks when people broke their Fender model necks ?

Hey, you were the guy who denied it was Tokai made until I showed you once again the control cavity routes to which you admitted it was Tokai made.
It has a smooth ebony board and MOP inlays with fret binding, what Tokai model has those other than 1983 LS150's (I think it was per a catalogue reference) but were those ink or embossed serials on the headstocks?
If embossed then the headstock would have had to be sanded down to erase that embossing.
I could care less if it is a prototype or not, I am not trying to prove this to brag about it...I am not a collector.
I am just trying to figure out what these unknown models are and there are discrepancies as well as evidence that throws a wrench into the usual spokes we know thus they are unknown and the IDEA is thrown out that perhaps they were test subjects.
Get your mind out of the "OMG they could never have allowed test subjects out of the vault!".
They were trying to make local guitars to fill a void that Gibson was not allowing to be filled at the time.
There was money 1st and foremost, as any business is started for...not some secret master swordsman builder hiding top secret techniques.
They got an old 1958 LP and went off those specs...pretty straight forward here.

The new looking neck plate compared to the rest is no biggie man...thought you should know this?

Here we have a 100% original 1957 Stratocaster.
Look at the wear and the input jack, looks new eh?

Or how about this all original 1957 Telecaster?
How does that neckplate look to you compared to the rest of the guitar?

Open your mind a little bit here man.

 

[Reborn Old]

Except for the guy continually pounding the Tele into his belt buckle, the body contour looks less worn than yours IMHO. The neck far more worn.
Hardware is easily replaced, which was my point exactly.

Yes the LS control cavity route resembles a Tokai route.
End of story on that one.

 

[Udonitron]

Hardware is easily replaced, which was my point exactly.

Yes the LS control cavity route resembles a Tokai route.
End of story on that one.

OK but your point was more upon why that neck plate looks so new when the guitar is so worn but you just ignore my proof with the all original 1957 examples above lol...too funny.
Resembles?
Thought we established and agreed they are 100% identical Tokai routes?
So it is Tokai made, end of story...good
I could care less calling it a prototype, I just want to know what it is.

Cavity...Tokai and notice how it is unfinished, bare wood?
That isn't normal and don't say it was stripped.

No heel, 1 piece body.

And a nice top YOU referred to as "paint grade" (lol)that still has very discernible router steps that formed the carve. Why would they leave those??

 

[Udonitron]

Except for the guy continually pounding the Tele into his belt buckle, the body contour looks less worn than yours IMHO. The neck far more worn.

Stop digressing from your initial point.
You also proved your initial point wrong regarding the plate being new while the rest aged BTW. :wink:

 

[Reborn Old]

In your mind maybe.
I don't know if Fender neck plates were triple plated or not, but the majority
of Tokai plates from the late 70's are dulled even on guitars with far less cosmetic body aging than yours.
Geographic location might have been a factor, along with a host of other intangibles.

If not assuming anything beyond the sum of their parts,
both guitars definitely have nice parts.

 

[Udonitron]

In your mind maybe.
I don't know if Fender neck plates were triple plated or not, but the majority
of Tokai plates from the late 70's are dulled even on guitars with far less cosmetic body aging than yours.
Geographic location might have been a factor, along with a host of other intangibles.

If not assuming anything beyond the sum of their parts,
both guitars definitely have nice parts.

OK so are you saying the neck plate is bogus then?
It is a 78 plate and if they dull so easily then mine must not be legit since it still has some sheen?

 

[Reborn Old]

No, more or less agreeing with Mark, who has more experience than all of us combined,
when he mentioned it would be difficult to prove whether the neck plate is original to the body or not.

One avenue to consider might be blacklighting the neck + clear neck pocket
for color variation ?

 

[Udonitron]

OK but you said "the majority of Tokai plates from the late 70's are dulled even on guitars with far less cosmetic body aging than yours." which, to me, is saying that somehow mine is different than the norm and thus not authentic or?

My 81 ST-70's plate was in good shape minus the gold wearing off

As too was the hardware

 

[Reborn Old]

As already stated, too many unknown factors in play.

The neck plate might have spent 30 years in a drawer
before being sold on Yahoo for all we know.
I see them listed on a somewhat regular basis.

I have contacted Tokai to see if they ever offered blank replacement necks.
Depending on who replies, the response might be of value or not.

A few final thoughts ...

Why would Tokai waste 2 premium one piece bodies on "test bed builds" never intended for retail ?

Why mess with Tokai LS build methods in the first place ?
such as moving the neck tenon back to a center placement ?
Tenon placement was well thought out in 1977, free of issues
and unchanged to this day.

Anyway ... I hope you eventually find out more info on both of these guitars. :wink:

 

[Peter Mac]

Hi Chris,

I totally disagree with you also.
In all my time with Tokai, I have never known a Breezy from 1978.
I believe the plate was swapped as the number falls inside some Springy prod run numbers.
As the neck plate was the same size between 1978 and Late 1980, it would be an easy thing to do.
I am also not accusing you of fraud either. By your passionate defence, I believe the plate was on it when you bought it.
-Jacco,
Did Greco have a Tele model in 1978? Could it be a hybrid?

Peter Mac

 

[Peter Mac]

Hi Guys,

I had another look at the body and it looks more Greco, seeing it has a notch missing between the front pickup and neck pocket ???
Anyway back to the serial number . . .
i have some ST numbers listed around 8003857
ST-42 8003870 11=8 YS
ST-55 8003816 11=4 N
ST-50 8003383 6=1 YS

It's too close a call but I have my doubts about this Breezy...

 

[Reborn Old]

Good info Peter.

I show only Springys from #8003105 .. reportedly about when Fender model neck stamps began ? to #8004296,
(which agrees with JDB's ST-80 #8001913 "no neck #" observation for comparison purposes)
but I didn't have accompanying body stamp #'s for comparison.
I would certainly trust body stamps for timeline in a given year more than serial # sequences for Fender models,
but in 1978 serial #'s follow body stamps sequences more closely than in later years.

 

[jacco]

The body looks Tokai to me Peter.

BTW I see a hex nut. Those are early aren't they?
Didn't Tokai change from hex to philips screw late 1980?

 

[Peter Mac]

Hi Jacco,

Tokai changed from Hex (allen key) to phillips at the end of MY1980. At the same time the neckplate changed also. The screw diameters and placement were altered, so a 1981 plate wont fit a 1980 body.

Peter Mac

 

[Udonitron]

As already stated, too many unknown factors in play.

The neck plate might have spent 30 years in a drawer
before being sold on Yahoo for all we know.
I see them listed on a somewhat regular basis.

I have contacted Tokai to see if they ever offered blank replacement necks.
Depending on who replies, the response might be of value or not.

A few final thoughts ...

Why would Tokai waste 2 premium one piece bodies on "test bed builds" never intended for retail ?

Why mess with Tokai LS build methods in the first place ?
such as moving the neck tenon back to a center placement ?
Tenon placement was well thought out in 1977, free of issues
and unchanged to this day.

Anyway ... I hope you eventually find out more info on both of these guitars. :wink:

Back in the 70's wood was not as scarce and valuable as it is now.
Hence why we saw lovely flamed, figured, quilted, and birdseye pieces on lower end poly coated examples like RLG-50's, EG-500s, and LS-50's.
No different than the then abundant sen ash as well.
How many good materials go into making a prototype anything?
They are pre-production models meant to be a testbed for full production line.
Of course they would use good wood and 1 piece slabs to mimic what they are hoping to be a full fledged assembly line of higher end models.
Hell as the story goes, they bought a 1958 LP, which at the time wasn't worth much, and essentially tore it apart to learn how to construct their LS line so how can you figure they would waste a few 1 piece slabs of ash to try out different ideas?

So you are denying that LP is Tokai made?
The pup and cavity routes are 100% Tokai so who would copy their jig to make that LP then?
Who would go to such trouble to do so and why would that be more believable vs the tenon not being offset?
Original 58 LP's tenons were centered, were they not?
So the early models they made I am sure had centered tenons until they, via their knowledge on mortise and tenon joints, realized an offset bass side tenon adds far more strength since the bass side portion of the body has more wood contact and less on the treble cutaway side, brilliant yes?
You think they figured that out on the 1st one they made?

My wife and I make and sell hot sauce and we hope to be going full blast public with it here soon.
We have been making it for 10 years now and since the beginning, when we were testing it to figure out the right ingredients we didn't choose sub par additives as we needed to know the best possible outcome from the start, no different with automotive companies creating new cars etc.
Why is this so hard to comprehend.
Get over this hurdle in your mind dude and look past these silly little "what if's" regarding the "there is no way they would do that" ideology.
Look at what Tokai offered prior to 1977/78 lol...not the most impressive stuff really.
They were just regular people figuring stuff out as they went, not infallible avatars smithing the hammer of the gods.

 

[Reborn Old]

Get over yourself, I wouldn't dream of ever telling others how to think let alone making unfounded accusations the way you have in this thread.

 

[Udonitron]

Hi Chris,

I totally disagree with you also.
In all my time with Tokai, I have never known a Breezy from 1978.
I believe the plate was swapped as the number falls inside some Springy prod run numbers.
As the neck plate was the same size between 1978 and Late 1980, it would be an easy thing to do.
I am also not accusing you of fraud either. By your passionate defence, I believe the plate was on it when you bought it.
-Jacco,
Did Greco have a Tele model in 1978? Could it be a hybrid?

Peter Mac

Totally fair mate.
Just an idea but if the TE's were made in 79 for the 80 production year then who is to say this neck stamped Dec plated 1978 model was just an early build?
If it were a test subject then none of us would know of its existence.
However everyone needs to realize that what we know to be truth changes continually.
Like science, ideas are based on trends and theories and those theories become fact after a while when they cannot be refuted.
However something always comes along to mix things up and new theories are born, ad infinitum.
Neck plate was intact, that is how I knew it was Tokai via the auction as it had a rub on decal on the headstock that said "I Love Dachshunds" when it was listed haha.

The pics didn't show tuner embossing etc but the bridge plate was another telltale sign so I jumped and got it for a super cheap.

Good info Peter.

I show only Springys from #8003105 .. reportedly about when Fender model neck stamps began ? to #8004296,
(which agrees with JDB's ST-80 #8001913 "no neck #" observation for comparison purposes)
but I didn't have accompanying body stamp #'s for comparison.
I would certainly trust body stamps for timeline in a given year more than serial # sequences for Fender models,
but in 1978 serial #'s follow body stamps sequences more closely than in later years.

I will have to pull my neck pup again and check for a stamp but from what I recall the routing under the pup was spurred wood and not smooth so difficult to put a serial there, which also lead me to the idea of a test model but I will check for assurity. :wink:

 

[Udonitron]

Get over yourself, I wouldn't dream of ever telling others how to think let alone making unfounded accusations the way you have in this thread.

I am replying to your claims above and trying to make some sense to the other side of the coin.
I am certainly not telling you how to think by any means but if you can make points and express opinions, why not I?
"Unfounded accusations"?
You mean like:

"Tokai nitro doesn't crack or craze."
"Why would Tokai waste 2 premium one piece bodies on "test bed builds" never intended for retail ? "
"In your mind maybe."
"the majority of Tokai plates from the late 70's are dulled even on guitars with far less cosmetic body aging than yours."
"Geographic location might have been a factor"
"Two prototypes held by an owner outside of the Adachi family,
what are the odds ?
It must be a prototype just because of the centered tenon and lack of a
diagonal route + ebony board, right ?"
"Odds of either of these being prototypes rather than LS pieces stolen from the factory and finished offsite
and a parts caster ... extremely slim to none."
"The "mystery" aspect of both of these guitars suggest shady dealings in the LS model's Japan history, and a modified TE"

Sorry that has offended you, not my intention.
I am also sorry how we cannot have an interesting discussion about some perplexing guitars and come up with some ideas without ego getting in the way.
Human nature I suppose. :-?