Tokai Breezysound TE-80 info please

[Reborn Old]

Just my personal opinions, but sorry, it looks refinished to me.
Finish is not evenly applied or remotely close to a finish Tokai ever used, prototype or not. I think it was natural finish originally.
Without the benefit of having it in front of me, body edges look rounded in places, and original finish would have worn in those places.

As to convincing aging ... perhaps it saw heavy usage very early in it's life, and was refinished many years ago ? Tokai nitro doesn't crack or craze.
Prototype or not, I can't see Tokai leaving a headstock blank either, and the neck + neck plate don't look nearly as aged as the body in pics,
so serial # plate and neck might have been added later ?
Why would a perceived 1978 TE-80 have a 1 piece body when 1979 examples like that TE-80 GS you just identified have a two piece body ?

The only piece that lends credibility to an early Breezy is the no name
gold bridge. Not enough proof of something that probably doesn't even exist.

 

[Udonitron]

Just my personal opinions, but sorry, it looks refinished to me.
Finish is not evenly applied and it's not remotely close to a finish Tokai ever used, prototype or not. I think it was natural finish originally.
Without the benefit of having it in front of me, body edges look rounded in places, and original finish would have worn in those places.

As to convincing aging ... perhaps it saw heavy usage very early in it's life, and was refinished many years ago ?
Prototype or not, I can't see Tokai leaving a headstock blank either, and the neck + neck plate don't look nearly as aged as the body in pics,
so serial # plate and neck could have been added later ?
Why would a perceived 1978 TE-80 have a 1 piece body when 1979 examples like that TE-80 GS you just identified have a two piece body ?

Finish is not evenly applied?
Dude, you claim you are building 2 LP's from scratch and yet you do don't acknowledge the flaming and figuring in the ash that causes those darker and lighter areas depending on the angle looked at?
Ash is porous and soaks up colouring differently in different areas if not conditioned first but I can assure you in person the finish is even and it is only the figuring/flaming that causes what you perceive to be unevenly applied.

The neck is quite ambered and aged as well actually, my previously posted pic shows that, I think.

And a few more for posterity.

Fretboard is quite worn as well.
The neck was not refinished as the heel pencil marks and ink are still intact and it is pure lacquer right to the wood.
It never had a logo on it; I have sprayed enough gallons of lacquer and stripped enough guitars to know the difference for sure.

Also, how can you say "it's not even remotely close to a color Tokai ever used, prototype or not." when, if it is a prototype, it would have been an early test model they mucked around with thus not made for production hence from the 12 month of 1978?
You have seen tons of Tokai prototypes to know this with 100% surety have you?
My 79/80 Tokai Tele catalog clearly has a TE-85N AND the TE-80GS (did you know this model actually existed?) with a 2 piece body and bridges with no Tokai embossing as well so those werent absolutes but hey, you thought a clearly visible center seam as a 1 piece body so what do I know?

 

[Udonitron]

Just my personal opinions, but sorry, it looks refinished to me.
Finish is not evenly applied or remotely close to a finish Tokai ever used, prototype or not. I think it was natural finish originally.
Without the benefit of having it in front of me, body edges look rounded in places, and original finish would have worn in those places.

As to convincing aging ... perhaps it saw heavy usage very early in it's life, and was refinished many years ago ? Tokai nitro doesn't crack or craze.
Prototype or not, I can't see Tokai leaving a headstock blank either, and the neck + neck plate don't look nearly as aged as the body in pics,
so serial # plate and neck might have been added later ?
Why would a perceived 1978 TE-80 have a 1 piece body when 1979 examples like that TE-80 GS you just identified have a two piece body ?

The only piece that lends credibility to an early Breezy is the no name
gold bridge. Not enough proof of something that probably doesn't even exist.

Ah, why do you always edit your posts and add/remove more later?
Anyway, saying this "Tokai nitro doesn't crack or craze." clearly shows you do not know all of what you believe good sir.

Here we have a 100% original LS80 Reborn Old from 1980.
Notice something?

Now please don't tell me this was refinished too.

 

[Udonitron]

When I get my LS80 delivered, sometime in the next year lol, I will do some checking tests.
All the nitro coated Tokai's I have handled in the past definitely have a more pure lacquer finish on em so I think under the right extreme conditions they will and do check.
My Argus had really no checking on it when I got it but since it has been here it has checked like crazy and the finish on it feels identical to the Tokai LP's I have handled.

 

[Reborn Old]

I was actually editing out the "not evenly applied" comment as being unnecessarily inflammatory right when you responded,
and when you quoted me I put it back in, hence the 2 edits.
I shouldn't have to account for edits.
You and Jacco are jerks for constantly quoting the post right above yours.
The feature is intended for comments several posts up.
Yes I edit from time to time, but always with the best of intentions.

None of my 12 odd lacquer Tokais have had checking. But a few Greco's surprisingly have. Maybe they were refinished ?
That's all I have to go on. Maybe they all spend too much time in cases. :-?

A have enough Tokai + TE model info + experience to express sound personal opinions, but I can respect that
your personal experience may bring you to different conclusions, so let's just leave it at that, OK ?

 

[Udonitron]

I quote because many times things are edited and other times by the time I write my reply there can be several more posts before mine thus the comment doesn't fit however this forum isn't as busy so fair enough.
You however like to totally delete your posts haha.
Sorry on my improper forum etiquette lol :lol:

But yeah my Tokai pamphlet here has both the 85N and the 80GS with 2 piece bodies and plain brass bridge plates.
The 55N is tamo sen ash.

 

[Udonitron]

Couple more different LS80 checking shots.
OK the pics arent working...stand by

 

[jacco]

I can't and won't comment on the appearance of the lacquer for I don't have the guitar in front of me.
I do not have a clear view on the routing of the pickup cavities, control cavity, so can't say anything about that. Same on the soldering.

There are 3 things that bother me with this guitar though:

1. If it was not refinished than the tummy cut is original.
Why would Tokai do a tummy cut during a period they were fanatical about copying original 50s & 60s models?

2. If it was not refinished then the finish color is original.
Why would Tokai do a non original finish color or even a color they were not going to use later?

3. This guitar has a neck stamp, has neck plate with serial.
Why no body stamp if other stamps/serial are there. Ever seen a 1977-1981 Tokai without a body stamp?

PS I have s 1980 sen ash Tokai TE-55N that I had completely refinished and a 1981 Tokai TE-50BL of which I had the neck refinished. Stamps are still intact, one of them has pencil marks, dito.

PPS Thanks Reborn, buddy

 

[villager]

in 79 and 80 a "5" model was always a natural finish for strats and teles, it was a 5000 yen upgrade on the standard model


there was a st55




and an st85



and a te55



and a TE-85

 

[jacco]

Ah yeah, forgot about the model stamp on the fretboard.
1978 model should have a fretboard stamp, so that's nr. 4.

 

[JDB]

My 78 springy doesn't have a board stamp, 8001913 cant be too far away from udo's for production time so it is possible?

 

[Peter Mac]

Hi JDB

Out of curiosity, where is your Serial# situated? On the neck plate or under the neck base?
Also does your body have stamps in the neck pocket and pickup cavities, and if so, what are they?

Thanks
Peter

 

[JDB]

2. If it was not refinished then the finish color is original.
Why would Tokai do a non original finish color or even a color they were not going to use later?

If you look at Greco and the Project series it is thought that there were a few prototypes before eventually going with the cashew lacquer and that dirty finish all leading up to a more vintage correct finish and build with the super reals.

 

[Udonitron]

LOL...if it were a prototype then perhaps that is why there is no stamp?
This neck is 100% lacquered, not refinished, a fat soft V shape, etc.
All the signs of a 80 type neck with Tokai Tuners, intact Tokai stamp round string tree, and never a logo applied but you still call it bogus for not ever having a logo.

You seem to be equating all the attributes to a full production model.
How can you compare a prototype to a production model?
Prototypes are test beds used for trying different designs, carves, shapes, finishes, etc that are not meant for public release and yet you are constantly using production attributes to prove it as not a prototype, kinda funny but I think you are more focused on proving your point or having this throw a wrench into your spokes vs thinking outside the box.

Kinda like my rare all lacquered Burny, right Jacco?
Had to of been a refinished RLG50 since it was pure nitro lacquer with a highly figured tight grained top but a 3 piece back however the previous question I posed to you on MLP about a refinish were not answered when they were very valid points IMHO.
Ah well.,,,I think it is more of a "this goes against the norm and what research I have gathered" vs looking at it for what it is.

My 78 springy doesn't have a board stamp, 8001913 cant be too far away from udo's for production time so it is possible?

Good point!
Well if we are going with the absolute mindset here, there is no way yours is legit JDB, yours is a partscaster or refinished.

I really don't think some folks here realize what pre-production or prototype means, honestly.

 

[jacco]

2. If it was not refinished then the finish color is original.
Why would Tokai do a non original finish color or even a color they were not going to use later?

If you look at Greco and the Project series it is thought that there were a few prototypes before eventually going with the cashew lacquer and that dirty finish all leading up to a more vintage correct finish and build with the super reals.

Well, no. Project Series were parallel production to already existing production.

 

[JDB]

Hi JDB

Out of curiosity, where is your Serial# situated? On the neck plate or under the neck base?
Also does your body have stamps in the neck pocket and pickup cavities, and if so, what are they?

Thanks
Peter

The codes are in the code thread I cant remember them off hand. The serial is on the neck not neck plate. There is a thread on here somewhere too.

 

[JDB]

Whatever..Point being that experimentation is not out of the question leading up to the final release.

 

[villager]

its pretty obviously a genuine high end tokai, nothing bogus there, my questions would be

1. how do you know it was never stickered? early stickers were applied on top of the lacquer, and therefore pretty easy to remove with no evidence left behind.. this is quite possible..

2. has the body been refinished? to me it looks possible.

3. is it an 85? if so, should it be natural?. but as there is no evidence of it being an 85 so could be either an 80 or 85.. if its an 80 then could be the original finish, if its an 85 then its probably refinished.

4. is the neck plate original?

now these are all very difficult to answer, if not impossible, so in summary it could be a prototype, TE-80/85, or it could be a later refinished TE-85 with a changed neck plate, its not possible to determine for sure either way really...

 

[JDB]

On the logo.
I bought an ST recently which had a fender decal on it but still had the original bit "oldies but goldies" on the end. I figured I would remove the fender and leave the small decal on. The neck is poly so I used acetone and it came straight off, unfortunately I forgot about the original bit and wiped that of too Don't know if it would be possible on a nitro neck if you were quick enough before it affected the finish?

 

[Udonitron]

its pretty obviously a genuine high end tokai, nothing bogus there, my questions would be

1. how do you know it was never stickered? early stickers were applied on top of the lacquer, and therefore pretty easy to remove with no evidence left behind.. this is quite possible..

2. has the body been refinished? to me it looks possible.

3. is it an 85? if so, should it be natural?. but as there is no evidence of it being an 85 so could be either an 80 or 85.. if its an 80 then could be the original finish, if its an 85 then its probably refinished.

4. is the neck plate original?

now these are all very difficult to answer, if not impossible, so in summary it could be a prototype, TE-80/85, or it could be a later refinished TE-85 with a changed neck plate, its not possible to determine for sure either way really...

I agree with your ideas Mark and they are plausible.
The only thing is, unless the previous owner used brand new IM pots and resoldered it one time only (possible I suppose) then there is no way to refinish this with everything still intact for the 1st time.
I will have to recheck the dates on the pots as well.
But why, if refinishing, change the neck plate and why no headstock logo?
All the old examples we see where people wanted Fenders not Japanese "lower grade" models, they either sanded or scraped the logo off and there is always evidence of that.

@ JDB
This one is untouched and from what I have seen of MIJ guitars and their headstock logos (after sanding many top coats back to cover with nitro), they did em legit with 1-2 light coats, sand, apply logo, add 4-7 more light coats sanding back between each to level the finish.
It would be tough to rub the upper layers of poly or lacquer off without still leaving a noticeable divot in the finish which would have to be sanded back over the whole headstock face and reapplied.
The finish is no thinner on the face than elsewhere and doesn't appear to be newer either.
Total mystery.