Lawsuit?

[Sigmania]

Hamamatsu, Thanks for translating.

Are you saying that in 1984 Fender sued Tokai, and Tokai lost?

If so, do you know of any documentation of this lawsuit?

So far I have not found any proof of this, so any supporting information would really be helpful in understanding what happened.

I’m hoping there is some information there in Japan that is not available to people who aren’t able to search documents in Japanese.

Many thanks as always.

 

[Sigmania]

Seems like the larger story is that Tokai was at the forefront of reviving the American vintage guitar market, making replicas of guitars that were no longer being made in the US and selling them at affordable prices.

When they started making these replicas Fender and Gibson were snoozing. Then they woke up and one strategy to deal with the competition was to call in the lawyers.

That’s what it looks like from my perspective.

I want to take the opportunity to thank the folks at Tokai for getting this going otherwise we might be playing Swiss cheese guitars. 8)

 

[Voidoid56]

Are you saying that in 1984 Fender sued Tokai, and Tokai lost?

If so, do you know of any documentation of this lawsuit?

My interpretation of it would be the other way around: Fender sued Tokai and lost (if so, not the first time), BUT Tokai was slapped with a court order preventing them from operating during the course of the legal proceedings, which was enough to force them into reconstruction. If Fender had won, I imagine that Tokai Fender copies with the correct headstock shape would have just disappeared overnight, which we all know they didn't.

And yeah, some sort of document confirming it would be interesting to see. Like I said, I haven't seen this info anywhere else but in the Japanese wiki.

And yes, thanks to Hamamatsu for the translation!

 

[HAMAMATSU]

8) i did a little research on this and found out so much from the japanese side of the internet that fender absolutely sued tokai in 1984 and tokai lost the case. there is no article about this in english so far but so many in japanese. at least about a dozen articles i found. all saying that tokai was sued by fender in 1984 and lost the case. and became unable to sell their products then went to bankrupt. this is really true and not my wrong comment. hope you can translate all those japanese articles.

 

[Sigmania]

Thanks for clarifying that. I figured that there was a lot more information in Japanese language sources than are available in English. So thank you HAMAMATSU.

Do your sources say where the suit was filed? Was it in Japan or in the US? I am guessing in Japan since I can't find anything in English. Would be great to have a source to try to find documents to translate.

This is information that I am not aware of surfacing before, so it would be a big deal to get the facts for all of us Tokai fans that are interested in the history of the company.

 

[Voidoid56]

8) i did a little research on this and found out so much from the japanese side of the internet that fender absolutely sued tokai in 1984 and tokai lost the case. there is no article about this in english so far but so many in japanese. at least about a dozen articles i found. all saying that tokai was sued by fender in 1984 and lost the case. and became unable to sell their products then went to bankrupt. this is really true and not my wrong comment. hope you can translate all those japanese articles.

Could you provide us with some links? I have Google Chrome set to auto-translate from Japanese, so I should be able to sort of read them.

Thanks very much for your research, I've been trying to figure this one out for a while now...

 

[HAMAMATSU]

https://rhrichie.click/tokai-electric-guitar-tokutyou-hyouka

 

[HAMAMATSU]

東海楽器製造株式会社（Tokai)は静岡県浜松市にある日本の楽器メーカーが保有するブランドです。

東海楽器は1947年創業で、グレコやアリアプロ２などと並んで日本のギターシーンを作り上げてきた老舗ギターメーカーで、住宅地にひっそりと建つ意外にも小さな工場なんですよ。

誰でも知っている「ピアニカ」を1961年に開発・販売しており、その後にクラシックギターやアコースティック・ギターの生産・販売を行い、1971年にはアメリカで有名なアコギメーカー「マーティン」の日本国内向けOEM生産を結んでいます。

1977年からTokaiブランドによるエレキギターの生産・販売を始めます。

当時のエレキギター製造の背景として、本物を手にしたこともない・見たこともない状態でカタログなどから見よう見まねで製造していました。

その中で、東海楽器だけは「ガロ」というバンドのメンバーから本物のギブソン・レスポールを借りて、材質や寸法・仕様まで徹底的にコピーしており、高品質なコピーモデルを製造していました。

78年から生産・販売していたレスポールのコピーモデル「LSシリーズ」はそのお陰でクオリティはとても高く、現在でもジャパンヴィンテージとして人気があり高値で取引されています。

作りは良いのは結構なんですが、この時代にギブソンのレスポールと同仕様のものを作っていたら、生産コストが合わない訳です。販売価格も市場価格に合わせて売らなければダメでした。

しかも、そこまで精巧なレプリカは本家ギブソンやフェンダーからクレームを受けてしまいます。

GIBSON社からの販売差し止め、1982年に山野楽器と神田商会が共同出資を行いフジゲンが製造する「フェンダージャパン」の設立、83年に発表したアルミボディの「Talbo」も高コスト＆斬新すぎて受け入れられずヒットには至りませんでした。

そんな中1984年に米国Fender社から「偽造品製造をしている」として訴訟を起こされます。

東海楽器は敗訴し裁判所命令により楽器が販売停止となり、そのため経営不振に陥り倒産します。

その後、1986年「東海楽器製造株式会社」と名を変え新しい会社を設立したトーカイは、苦難を乗り越え現在までハイクオリティなエレキギターを生み出し続けています。

 

[felixcatus]

東海楽器製造株式会社（Tokai)は静岡県浜松市にある日本の楽器メーカーが保有するブランドです。

東海楽器は1947年創業で、グレコやアリアプロ２などと並んで日本のギターシーンを作り上げてきた老舗ギターメーカーで、住宅地にひっそりと建つ意外にも小さな工場なんですよ。

誰でも知っている「ピアニカ」を1961年に開発・販売しており、その後にクラシックギターやアコースティック・ギターの生産・販売を行い、1971年にはアメリカで有名なアコギメーカー「マーティン」の日本国内向けOEM生産を結んでいます。

1977年からTokaiブランドによるエレキギターの生産・販売を始めます。

当時のエレキギター製造の背景として、本物を手にしたこともない・見たこともない状態でカタログなどから見よう見まねで製造していました。

その中で、東海楽器だけは「ガロ」というバンドのメンバーから本物のギブソン・レスポールを借りて、材質や寸法・仕様まで徹底的にコピーしており、高品質なコピーモデルを製造していました。

78年から生産・販売していたレスポールのコピーモデル「LSシリーズ」はそのお陰でクオリティはとても高く、現在でもジャパンヴィンテージとして人気があり高値で取引されています。

作りは良いのは結構なんですが、この時代にギブソンのレスポールと同仕様のものを作っていたら、生産コストが合わない訳です。販売価格も市場価格に合わせて売らなければダメでした。

しかも、そこまで精巧なレプリカは本家ギブソンやフェンダーからクレームを受けてしまいます。

GIBSON社からの販売差し止め、1982年に山野楽器と神田商会が共同出資を行いフジゲンが製造する「フェンダージャパン」の設立、83年に発表したアルミボディの「Talbo」も高コスト＆斬新すぎて受け入れられずヒットには至りませんでした。

そんな中1984年に米国Fender社から「偽造品製造をしている」として訴訟を起こされます。

東海楽器は敗訴し裁判所命令により楽器が販売停止となり、そのため経営不振に陥り倒産します。

その後、1986年「東海楽器製造株式会社」と名を変え新しい会社を設立したトーカイは、苦難を乗り越え現在までハイクオリティなエレキギターを生み出し続けています。

Thanks for posting. 8)
After 'Google translated', an interesting read.

 

[HAMAMATSU]

https://usedguitar.jp/archives/1646

 

[Sigmania]

東海楽器製造株式会社（Tokai)は静岡県浜松市にある日本の楽器メーカーが保有するブランドです。

東海楽器は1947年創業で、グレコやアリアプロ２などと並んで日本のギターシーンを作り上げてきた老舗ギターメーカーで、住宅地にひっそりと建つ意外にも小さな工場なんですよ。

誰でも知っている「ピアニカ」を1961年に開発・販売しており、その後にクラシックギターやアコースティック・ギターの生産・販売を行い、1971年にはアメリカで有名なアコギメーカー「マーティン」の日本国内向けOEM生産を結んでいます。

1977年からTokaiブランドによるエレキギターの生産・販売を始めます。

当時のエレキギター製造の背景として、本物を手にしたこともない・見たこともない状態でカタログなどから見よう見まねで製造していました。

その中で、東海楽器だけは「ガロ」というバンドのメンバーから本物のギブソン・レスポールを借りて、材質や寸法・仕様まで徹底的にコピーしており、高品質なコピーモデルを製造していました。

78年から生産・販売していたレスポールのコピーモデル「LSシリーズ」はそのお陰でクオリティはとても高く、現在でもジャパンヴィンテージとして人気があり高値で取引されています。

作りは良いのは結構なんですが、この時代にギブソンのレスポールと同仕様のものを作っていたら、生産コストが合わない訳です。販売価格も市場価格に合わせて売らなければダメでした。

しかも、そこまで精巧なレプリカは本家ギブソンやフェンダーからクレームを受けてしまいます。

GIBSON社からの販売差し止め、1982年に山野楽器と神田商会が共同出資を行いフジゲンが製造する「フェンダージャパン」の設立、83年に発表したアルミボディの「Talbo」も高コスト＆斬新すぎて受け入れられずヒットには至りませんでした。

そんな中1984年に米国Fender社から「偽造品製造をしている」として訴訟を起こされます。

東海楽器は敗訴し裁判所命令により楽器が販売停止となり、そのため経営不振に陥り倒産します。

その後、1986年「東海楽器製造株式会社」と名を変え新しい会社を設立したトーカイは、苦難を乗り越え現在までハイクオリティなエレキギターを生み出し続けています。

Here’s what I got from Google translate of the above text:

“Tokai Musical Instrument Manufacturing Co., Ltd. (Tokai) is a brand owned by a Japanese musical instrument manufacturer located in Hamamatsu City, Shizuoka Prefecture.

Tokai Gakki was founded in 1947 and is a long-established guitar maker that has created the Japanese guitar scene alongside Greco and Aria Pro 2. It is a surprisingly small factory that is quietly built in a residential area.

Developed and sold "Pianica" that everyone knows in 1961, then produced and sold classical guitars and acoustic guitars, and in 1971, the famous acoustic guitar maker "Martin" in Japan. We have OEM production for.

From 1977, we will start producing and selling electric guitars under the Tokai brand.

As a background to the production of electric guitars at that time, I used to imitate the real thing from catalogs, etc. in a state where I had never picked it up or saw it.

Among them, only Tokai Gakki borrowed a real Gibson Les Paul from a member of the band "Garo" and thoroughly copied the material, dimensions and specifications, and manufactured a high quality copy model. rice field.

Thanks to that, the Les Paul copy model "LS series", which has been produced and sold since 1978, has very high quality and is still popular as a Japan vintage and is traded at a high price.

It's fine to make it, but if you made something with the same specifications as the Gibson Les Paul in this era, the production cost would not match. The selling price had to be sold according to the market price.

What's more, such an elaborate replica receives complaints from the original Gibson and Fender.

Sales suspension from GIBSON, establishment of "Fender Japan" manufactured by Fujigen with joint investment by Yamano Music Co., Ltd. and Kanda Shokai in 1982, and acceptance of the aluminum body "Talbo" announced in 1983 because it is too expensive and novel. I couldn't make it a hit.

Meanwhile, in 1984, a lawsuit was filed by Fender in the United States for "manufacturing counterfeit products."

Tokai Gakki lost the case and the sales of the musical instrument were suspended by a court order, resulting in poor management and bankruptcy.

After that, Tokai changed its name to "Tokai Gakki Mfg. Co., Ltd." in 1986 and established a new company.”

 

[Sigmania]

https://usedguitar.jp/archives/1646

And I translated this from that link:



Evaluation and Reputation of Tokai's Guitar

(Starting in the middle)

In 1977, we started producing and selling the ST series of electric guitars under the Tokai brand.

The main products at this time were copy models such as the Fender Stratocaster type and the Gibson Les Paul type.

The model manufactured at this time is called "Japan Vintage" mentioned above, and it is popular overseas, especially the Les Paul type high-end model is highly evaluated, and it is hardly seen in the market.

I've only researched Fender and Gibson vintages, and I'm proud of their high quality.

Then, in 1983, we developed Talbo, which is now a standard model of Tokai, and started production and sales.

As you know, the Talbo has a unique spec of an aluminum body, and it attracted attention as a futuristic guitar due to the background of the times.

However, in 1984, Fender in the United States filed a lawsuit for manufacturing counterfeit products and lost the case, and a court order suspended the sale of musical instruments and applied for the Corporate Rehabilitation Law.

Tokai has the technology to make high quality copy models, which is said to be the best in Japan if you make a copy model, and it is said to be of a quality that surpasses that of the head family.

Tokai started making copy models when Fender, the head family, was under CBS, and Gibson was also under Norlin, a dark age when both companies were making poor quality guitars.

Therefore, Tokai's guitars are cheap and well-made, and they are of high quality, so they are highly evaluated as surpassing the original ones.

The real vintage sound is appealing, but the old ones can cause the neck to deteriorate, and the internal electrical system can be at the end of its life.

Rather than playing on such a guitar, if you don't care about the brand, you can enjoy the vintage sound in a state close to new.

Tokai guitars are very popular because they are sturdy, have few frets, and have good sound omission.

In order to prevent deterioration due to soldering, there are specifications that are different from the original, such as adopting a costly print board, but you can see the attitude of trying to maintain quality while being conscious of the original.

Tokai's Les Paul-type guitars around this time were praised by ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons and used during the tour.

Not limited to this Les Paul model, Tokai guitars of this period now have a premier price in the second hand market and are trading at high prices.

The Les Paul model at this time is very beautiful because it was a time when we were free to use abundant wood.

The Stratocaster type is also highly rated, and recently used by John Mayor, it seems that the price is even higher.

 

[Sigmania]

東海楽器製造株式会社（Tokai)は静岡県浜松市にある日本の楽器メーカーが保有するブランドです。

東海楽器は1947年創業で、グレコやアリアプロ２などと並んで日本のギターシーンを作り上げてきた老舗ギターメーカーで、住宅地にひっそりと建つ意外にも小さな工場なんですよ。

誰でも知っている「ピアニカ」を1961年に開発・販売しており、その後にクラシックギターやアコースティック・ギターの生産・販売を行い、1971年にはアメリカで有名なアコギメーカー「マーティン」の日本国内向けOEM生産を結んでいます。

1977年からTokaiブランドによるエレキギターの生産・販売を始めます。

当時のエレキギター製造の背景として、本物を手にしたこともない・見たこともない状態でカタログなどから見よう見まねで製造していました。

その中で、東海楽器だけは「ガロ」というバンドのメンバーから本物のギブソン・レスポールを借りて、材質や寸法・仕様まで徹底的にコピーしており、高品質なコピーモデルを製造していました。

78年から生産・販売していたレスポールのコピーモデル「LSシリーズ」はそのお陰でクオリティはとても高く、現在でもジャパンヴィンテージとして人気があり高値で取引されています。

作りは良いのは結構なんですが、この時代にギブソンのレスポールと同仕様のものを作っていたら、生産コストが合わない訳です。販売価格も市場価格に合わせて売らなければダメでした。

しかも、そこまで精巧なレプリカは本家ギブソンやフェンダーからクレームを受けてしまいます。

GIBSON社からの販売差し止め、1982年に山野楽器と神田商会が共同出資を行いフジゲンが製造する「フェンダージャパン」の設立、83年に発表したアルミボディの「Talbo」も高コスト＆斬新すぎて受け入れられずヒットには至りませんでした。

そんな中1984年に米国Fender社から「偽造品製造をしている」として訴訟を起こされます。

東海楽器は敗訴し裁判所命令により楽器が販売停止となり、そのため経営不振に陥り倒産します。

その後、1986年「東海楽器製造株式会社」と名を変え新しい会社を設立したトーカイは、苦難を乗り越え現在までハイクオリティなエレキギターを生み出し続けています。

HAMAMATSU, what is the source for this text above?



This article says Tokai lost a lawsuit to Fender,

“Meanwhile, in 1984, a lawsuit was filed by Fender in the United States for "manufacturing counterfeit products."

Tokai Gakki lost the case and the sales of the musical instrument were suspended by a court order, resulting in poor management and bankruptcy.”


the other linked article seems to say Fender lost?


“However, in 1984, Fender in the United States filed a lawsuit for manufacturing counterfeit products and lost the case, and a court order suspended the sale of musical instruments and applied for the Corporate Rehabilitation Law.”



I may not be understanding correctly, or the translation is off?

 

[Sigmania]

Both of those sources say the case was filed in the United States in 1984...

There would be a record I would think?

Ideas anyone?

 

[Sigmania]

And as for Gibson & Tokai:

https://www.billboard.com/music/mus...gibson-trademark-infringement-claims-1431365/

Tokai Responds To Gibson Trademark-Infringement Claims

6/28/2004

NEW YORK — A top executive at Japanese guitar/bass manufacturer Tokai says the company is no longer interested in selling its “Love Rock” guitars in the United States. The remark comes after Gibson Guitar Corp. in May filed a trademark-infringement suit over the model in the Middle District of Tennessee (ELW, June 21).

“We have no intention to break U.S.A. law or rules,” insists Shohei Adachi, president of Tokai.

Gibson claimed that the Love Rock models infringe on the design of its Les Paul electric guitar.

Tokai’s Love Rock guitars were first sold in the U.S. in 1983, says Adachi. In 1987, the year Gibson applied for trademark registration for the Les Paul, “we stopped selling our guitars in the U.S. because of the exchange rate,” Adachi says. “The value of Japanese yen became about double to U.S. dollar. So we (gave) up selling our guitars to the U.S. market.

“In 2001,” he continues, “our Canadian distributor asked us to sell our guitars in the U.S., and they advised us to change the body figure and the headstock figure of Love Rock because of Gibson’s registered trademarks. Our Canadian distributor talked to Gibson’s attorney and designed our new Love Rock models.”

Tokai exhibited the new Love Rock and other guitars at the biannual NAMM trade shows in 2002, 2003 and January 2004. The NAMM show is produced by, the International Music Products Assn.

“We thought we did not have any problem with our new Love Rock models with Gibson,” says Adachi. “We talked to our Canadian distributor and at NAMM 2004 (in Anaheim, Calif.), we exhibited our new Love Rock models and our original guitars through our new U.S.A. distributor, Godlyke Inc.

“Godlyke checked our new Love Rock models with their attorney carefully before exhibiting. So we did not worry with Gibson. So now we are surprised at Gibson’s act, and we leave this matter to Godlyke.”

Clifton, N.J.-based Godlyke Distributing Inc. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

“We look at everyone’s designs,” responds Gibson general counsel Joel Cherry, “and there are many we conclude that legally we have no right (to oppose). That’s fine; there is a basic design or look to a guitar. But to the extent that elements are protectable, we go after the infringers.”

 

[Sigmania]

I can't help but notice that this whole thing with trying to get SRV on board as an endorsee was happening at the same time this lawsuit was apparently taking place. Coincidence?

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26098&p=195548#p195548

 

[HAMAMATSU]

https://rhrichie.click/tokai-electric-guitar-tokutyou-hyouka

8) here it is, mr.sigmania!

 

[Voidoid56]

Great info, thanks again Hamamatsu!

I'm wondering about one thing: do we have any indication as to what the Fender-Tokai lawsuit was specifically about? The 1977 Norlin vs Elger lawsuit concerned the open-book headstock shape, Fender tried (and failed) to sue several manufacturers for copying the Strat, Tele and PB silhouettes fairly recently etc. These things generally focus on specific design features.

I've noticed that all translated Japanese info talks about "counterfeit guitars". If that is the exactly correct translation, I'd say it goes beyond intellectual property rights infringements like copying design features. Counterfeiting is about trying to pass off a copy as an actual original, which would include the logo on a commercial product. If so, I wonder if the 7okai spaghetti logo was the issue? I mean, an untrained observer needs to get within two meters or so to see that it doesn't actually say Fender?

True, the 7okai logo was not in use by 1984. On the other hand, Ibanez hadn't used the open book headstock for well over a year when they were sued by Norlin, so it seems that you can actually sue for damages retroactively.

Oh well, another day, another mystery...

 

[Sigmania]

Unfortunately, without a document or an actual case to point to it’s still just hearsay. If there were a case filed in the US, would that be a matter of public record? If it were, wouldn’t it have turned up by now? I’m not a lawyer and am not sure how to find such a thing. I just know that in life that I try to question my own assumptions. We still need a document or a case number to move this beyond the level of rumor in my opinion.

 

[Sigmania]

https://rhrichie.click/tokai-electric-guitar-tokutyou-hyouka

8) here it is, mr.sigmania!

Looks like tit says:

Ryu's guitar activity! blog

This article is designed to solve the above worries and doubts.

This is because Ryu, the blog administrator with 24 years of experience in guitar, has introduced the features and evaluations of Tokai electric guitars in an easy-to-understand manner.

The first half of the article introduces the history, characteristics, and evaluation of Tokai, and the second half introduces the current lineup and Tokai's Japan Vintage.

After reading this article, Tokai's copy model is so sophisticated that it surpasses the original model, and there is a model with overwhelming originality, and it may be that it had the strongest quality and technology in Japan from that time. I understand.

Tokai (Tokai Gakki) has a motto of manufacturing with the highest priority on quality, and advocates [inefficient production principle].

Tokai's Les Paul copy model "Love Rock (LS) series" is of such high quality that even if you are blindfolded and handed "This is a Gibson Les Paul", you will not know at all.

Tokai Gakki is not an assembly line work like a typical factory, but a style in which processes are carried out one by one, and one work process is done by multiple people, and when the work of that process is completed, everyone next We work in a special style that cannot be seen anywhere else, such as moving to the process.

This is the reason why we are proud of our high quality.

Tokai also manufactures a novel original model, and there is an aluminum body electric guitar "TALBO" that became famous for being used by GLAY's HISASHI.

This Talbo was first announced in 1983, almost 40 years ago, and it is surprisingly unique and technologically powerful considering that time.

And Tokai has a patented technology "SEB structure" that is applied to the body, and by adopting this technology, sound transmission is four times faster than that of a normal body.

From the above, Tokai is a manufacturer that manufactures one of the highest quality guitars in Japan, and may have the strongest technological capabilities in Japan!

Tokai Musical Instrument Manufacturing Co., Ltd. (Tokai) is a brand owned by a Japanese musical instrument manufacturer located in Hamamatsu City, Shizuoka Prefecture.

Tokai Gakki was founded in 1947 and is a long-established guitar maker that has created the Japanese guitar scene alongside Greco and Aria Pro 2. It is a surprisingly small factory that is quietly built in a residential area.

Developed and sold "Pianica" that everyone knows in 1961, then produced and sold classical guitars and acoustic guitars, and in 1971, the famous acoustic guitar maker "Martin" in Japan. We have OEM production for.

From 1977, we will start producing and selling electric guitars under the Tokai brand.

As a background to the production of electric guitars at that time, I used to imitate the real thing from catalogs, etc. in a state where I had never picked it up or saw it.

Among them, only Tokai Gakki borrowed a real Gibson Les Paul from a member of the band "Garo" and thoroughly copied the material, dimensions and specifications, and manufactured a high quality copy model. rice field.

Thanks to that, the Les Paul copy model "LS series", which has been produced and sold since 1978, has very high quality and is still popular as a Japan vintage and is traded at a high price.

It's fine to make it, but if you made something with the same specifications as the Gibson Les Paul in this era, the production cost would not match. The selling price had to be sold according to the market price.

What's more, such an elaborate replica receives complaints from the original Gibson and Fender.

Sales suspension from GIBSON, establishment of "Fender Japan" manufactured by Fujigen with joint investment by Yamano Music Co., Ltd. and Kanda Shokai in 1982, and acceptance of the aluminum body "Talbo" announced in 1983 because it is too expensive and novel. I couldn't make it a hit.

Meanwhile, in 1984, a lawsuit was filed by Fender in the United States for "manufacturing counterfeit products."

Tokai Gakki lost the case and the sales of the musical instrument were suspended by a court order, resulting in poor management and bankruptcy.

After that, Tokai changed its name to "Tokai Gakki Mfg. Co., Ltd." in 1986 and established a new company.