Tone Quest in need of help :o(

[DrJzT]

Now i know these sort of questions can lead to a whole myriad of possible answers. Im desperately trying to hone in to a particular sound. I know 99% of it is in the fingers, nuances etc. Trouble is i dont want to spend the rest of my life chasing that elusive piece of gear!
Im not desperate to sound like anyone in particular, but If i can get a few pointers then great!
:lol:

First things first some info about myself, started off idolising Metallica, Hendrix, Cream, Nirvana, Pantera, then cough, cough the whole nu-metal thing (think it was teenage angst). Then drifted off into funk, jazz, hip hop etc.
The only guitarist who got me inspired in studying the guitar and playing again was Allan Holdsworth (even have an SG signed by the man). When i first heard him it was an epiphany.
Now this is the but..... I have no intention in attempting to play like him (i have only two hands). I admire him for his dedication to the art and his sense of integrity (not selling out etc). But to be a bad AH clone isnt going to help me.

Im currently playing in a hip hop/jazzy/funk band. And i do play the odd guitar solo (when pushed). I do like to have a bit of note sustain, but my days of searing distortion are behind me. One guitar sound i do like is Mr 335 himself (listen to the difference between Mr Ritneour and Carlton). This is what im talking about, carltons sound is a lot warmer to my ears.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfchN7G-oQk

This is another of my favourite current sounds, again seems remarkabley clean(ish) and yet he has incredible sustain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny5ajCn0xw

My current gear is Tokai Es130, Fender Blues Deluxe, numerous pedals. I do own a TS9 but when ive tried just running the TS9 amp and guitar. I dont seem to get the sound im after in my head. I do tend to use the neck pickup, roll some high end. And all guitars are strung with 11s.

Please dont tell me i need to get a dumble

I hope i havent waffled, just want to try and provide as much information as possible. As you know that this sort of question is dependant on a huge number of variables

:lol:

 

[JVsearch]

One piece of advice about the TS-9:
It is totally useless as an "effect" they should primarily be used as eq shaping pusher pedal for another gain stage, usually a valve based stage in your amp. If you can cope run the preamp wide open and let the TS-9 push into the power stages like SRV. Problem is, if your amp is any more than about 5 watts you will be killed by the volume!

This is if you believe the stories about power tube distortion being the only good sounding distortion, preamp dist can certainly work as well IMO.

TS-9 could also be used to push another dirt pedal or something like that.

If you're driving a solid state amp with a TS-9 it's going to sound pretty *****. I had a TS-9 back in the 90s and virtually gave it away it sounded so useless, but now I know better...

 

[settebello]

Hi Doc,
you need a dumble. :wink: Or get a Fender amp and a Ethos overdrive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4I5tN9_Mrc

Volker

 

[JohnA]

To my ears all of those clips are just 335 and a quality valve amp, I think the blues deluxe might not be the best amp for what you are trying to achieve. something like the Fender Super-sonics, a Ceriatone Overtone, but either get an attenuator or an amp small enough so you can crank it, that's where the tone is :wink:

I would try as many amps as you can, take your guitar along, and wind it up a bit!

 

[marcusnieman]

or an amp small enough so you can crank it, that's where the tone is :wink:

No truer words ever spoken.

 

[MIJvintage]

FWIW, some of my favorite artist I have seen play electric sets & acoustic sets

the interesting thing I have noticed about them is that their sound unplugged is as impressive as when they play electric

IMO, it's all in an individuals hands, technique, and discipline; if one doesn?t have it there then no amount of electro gizmos are gonna do shiz for anyone ????

 

[Big Willie Style]

To my ears all of those clips are just 335 and a quality valve amp, I think the blues deluxe might not be the best amp for what you are trying to achieve. something like the Fender Super-sonics, a Ceriatone Overtone, but either get an attenuator or an amp small enough so you can crank it, that's where the tone is :wink:

I would try as many amps as you can, take your guitar along, and wind it up a bit!

Not to hi-jack, but can anyone give some examples of decent attenuators?

Thanks

Jason

 

[marcusnieman]

To my ears all of those clips are just 335 and a quality valve amp, I think the blues deluxe might not be the best amp for what you are trying to achieve. something like the Fender Super-sonics, a Ceriatone Overtone, but either get an attenuator or an amp small enough so you can crank it, that's where the tone is :wink:

I would try as many amps as you can, take your guitar along, and wind it up a bit!

Not to hi-jack, but can anyone give some examples of decent attenuators?

Thanks

Jason

Bad Cat makes a good one:

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Feb/Bad_Cat_The_Leash_Attenuator.aspx

 

[JohnA]

To my ears all of those clips are just 335 and a quality valve amp, I think the blues deluxe might not be the best amp for what you are trying to achieve. something like the Fender Super-sonics, a Ceriatone Overtone, but either get an attenuator or an amp small enough so you can crank it, that's where the tone is :wink:

I would try as many amps as you can, take your guitar along, and wind it up a bit!

Not to hi-jack, but can anyone give some examples of decent attenuators?

Thanks

Jason

I really like the Marshall powerbrake with Marshall amps, which is what I use, IMO the THD hotplate adds a horrible fizzy overtone to the the sound, there are loads of others but these are the only two I have experience with!

 

[Diodibuh]

I have Airbrake, home made, sounds really good and it's cheaper than any other attenuator.

 

[JohnA]

I have Airbrake, home made, sounds really good and it's cheaper than any other attenuator.

Homemade? Post some details

 

[Diodibuh]

yes, a friend of mine builds them
I'll take some pictures and post here

 

[rdpickups]

DrJZT

IMHO, you should already have everything you need to make those tones. If you are playing in a band with that Fender amp and a Tokai ES then I am assuming cranking the volume a little is not a problem.

Try cranking the amp volume just beyond breakup and rolling back the volume on the guitar

Tell us what you are missing! .... can you describe the current tones you are getting from that setup and what settings you are using to attempt to get there.

If vol is a problem an attenuator will get you there, I can vouch for an airbrake on about the first 10db or so of attenuation (2-3 clicks) most of the parts lists include a rehostat (variable resistor) for the high attenuation levels you may use in a bedroom setup, if you leave this part out you will save a good proportion of the parts cost. There may be other attenuators better at these levels so it depends on your playing needs

 

[DrJzT]

Hi guys

Sorry for the delay, thanks for the suggestions and advice. I feel im definately getting closer to the sound im after in my head. This issue I feel is something that every guitarist or at least some fall into. The constant gear chase!

I used to have a 100w marshall tsl combo with the matching extension cabinet. And whilst it sounded pretty "rawk", i realised that
a) it was way too loud for anything
b) my days playing rock music were over.
c) I was fed up lugging it all around!

So after trying a few 1x12 combo amps, the blues deluxe had the nicest clean sound. I know its not the flashest amp, but its definately a lot nicer sounding than the TSL (clean channel anyway) IMHO, plus it was pretty cheap!

Ive never really had the opportunity to try pre-amp distortion (volume). I used to play with five horns which did give a slight chance to let the amp shine in a practice room. But nine times out of ten when you play live, your mic'd up. So you can't really crank the amp then.

It must be a male thing the fascination with wattage. I mean a 40w valve amp is still very very loud. So perhaps an attenuator is the way to go. What do you guys think of these? Seems too cheap to be any good? you know too good to be true etc

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ATTENUATOR-FOR-FENDER-HOT-ROD-BLUES-DELUXE-DEVILLE-TWIN_W0QQitemZ200396389590QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea88e3cd6

I have a friend of mine whose just started gigging again with a thrash metal band is looking for a new amp. He has a 100w single channel 80s marshall jcm800 and mentioned he was thinking about a triple rec. Im sure its a lovely amp, but he's never going to use it to its full potentiol (Im not sure on the power options to be honest).

That ethos pedal does sound lovely, but cant find anywhere that sells it in the UK?

"FWIW, some of my favorite artist I have seen play electric sets & acoustic sets

the interesting thing I have noticed about them is that their sound unplugged is as impressive as when they play electric

IMO, it's all in an individuals hands, technique, and discipline; if one doesn?t have it there then no amount of electro gizmos are gonna do shiz for anyone ????"

I agree completely, im not so much into Carltons playing; its more the sound. For instance im a massive AH fan and he's played everything from SG's, custom made models and even the violin. You can tell from what he plays that its him. The 335 clip with ritenour and carlton you can hear the difference between the two 335's. Lee's definately got much more of a rock guitar tone.

Perhaps i just need to spend time with my gear tweaking etc. Im probably gonna buy another ext cab to open the sound up a bit more. But if i can find somewhere that sells the Ethos pedal....

It might need to think about what kind of sound i want, the carlton sound isnt about huge amounts of gain/distortion, but in the mean time just need to find out about attenuators

 

[settebello]

You can order the ethos only from the builder.
http://www.customtonesinc.com/
The chance to find a used one is pretty small,there was one at ebay that sells for a horrible price.But there are other dumble like pedals out there,
as the Zendrive,Menatone Howie or the Barber Small Fry.
Tim Lerch do a good comparison between the Ethos and the Zendrive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW1SqL8k-9c

Volker

 

[rdpickups]

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Effects/product/Carl%27s+Custom+Guitars/Volume+Box+for+Fender+Amps/10/1

the HC guys dont seem to like them, and it does not look big enough to be a proper attenuator/power soak, and for a power soak, bigger is usually better as a lot of heat is generated.

not great reviews here either

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-518301.html

after some more reading you will find its not really a soak for the power stage, rather a volume control on the preamp, not the same thing at all.

How much attenuation or volume reduction do you need as this will limit your choice?

I would suiggest that you still need to fully understand the tonal pallet available to you in your existing setup first. As you have mentioned, more time tweaking what you have got before adding pedals that colour tone, usually BEFORE they reach the amp.

If you do not understand what your amp can do at all the volume levels you intend to play at then pedals IMHO can be a disappointing distraction, what works at bedroom levels may not work best at gigging levels.

your buddies JCM800 is one of those amps that has an iconic tone that is often copied but only really delivered out of a real JCM800, if thats what he wants, and he has the ability to use it great, if not then there are probably better ways to get close, these old amps need to be cranked up to deliver the goods they were intended to deliver, and any attenuator will compromise that sound to some degree.

 

[DrJzT]

Thanks guys have to admit that the price of the ethos pedal did shock me but then again i paid over a grand on the tokai semi, without even playing it. Such was the strength of the reviews from this site, and on HC (and mr gibsons crazy pricing for 335's!). Ill have a hunt out for the other pedals

Yeah my pedal buying/selling is a bit of a running joke amongst my friends. I had one of the original Marshall Guvnor pedals, which again is a hyped up pedal. And to be fair it sounded very marshally, with a very broad tonal sweep. But meh it just wasnt my thing. Still made more money selling it though

To be fair im not sure on the level im after. The blues deluxe has a really twitchy volume knob, seems to have a massive volume jump from 1-2. See i've read mixed reviews on the marshall power brake. And then on the THD hot plate. The blues deluxe does have a drive channel, which is very vintage sounding. I'd just like to squeeze a little bit more out of it. Then again it goes against my train of thought, in thinking that the carlton sound doesnt have masses of gain!!! ahh When ive partnered the drive channel with a TS9 i've never quite got to what i was after! Almost but not quite. But perhaps the sound im after is changing as im changing as a guitarist?

Yeah my mates JCM, is something ive been on at him for years now. It badly needs or i think could benefit from service/overhaul. I had to go the marshall factory to get my old TSL repaired and asked him if he wanted me to take his JCM800 with me to get them to service it. But he wasnt fussed. At the moment he's finally using his original Jackson randy rhodes (with passive p'ups, mid boost removed) thru neck into a BOSS GT10 then into the old JCM800. I know i know. :wink:
The other guitarist in his band uses some sort of pointy jackson (dont ask me) and then into a mesa. And i think he's kind of thought that the space station box isnt really his thing. He's not into super bizarre out there space noises or anything. Im not bitching about the GT10 but ive never got on with multi fx, analog as much as possibe! the multi fxs have got better, but its a bit too much programming for me. Still one mans meat...

My suggestion to him is get the JCM serviced, maybe a power brake and a mesa boogie v twin. Im not even sure on the sound he wants? He likes stoner rock, if so i'd suggest a 30w Matamp, then he does like the widdly solos. Anyway...........i have enough of my own problems!

 

[Diodibuh]

I have Airbrake, home made, sounds really good and it's cheaper than any other attenuator.

Homemade? Post some details

I made this promise quite some time ago

enjoy

 

[DaveWW]

Looks interesting. What are the components?

I made one a while back based on an in wall volume control similar to these http://www.amptone.com/wallmountspeakerattenuator.htm It worked fine but as I now use power scaling I sold it on ebay. Is yours similar?

Dave

 

[Diodibuh]

no idea, because I didn't built it, a friend of mine did. works really nice