NGD Celebrations! 1978 LS-50GT

[ElectricJam]

Can anybody tell me what the going rate for a '79 LS 50 Gold top would be? It appears to have a dark back and rosewood fretboard. I know that these are the basest model Tokai produced but other than that I'm not sure what concessions were made, other than the veneered top and split back. Would the fretboard be Brazilian rosewood or Indian? Has all original gear, minus the original hard case, and wiring/pups which were replaced by a previous owner. It's a bit knocked around but otherwise in good condition. What would be your cash offer for such a guitar?

 

[Reborn Old]

I never comment on prices but the top will be solid maple (paint grade or better), not veneer.
Chances of a Braz board on an entry level model would be zero.
Two piece center seamed back is spec.
Hard cases were an option.

 

[ElectricJam]

Should a '78, LS-50 have a MOP inlay or screen print. The guitar I'm looking at has the later, whereas all my research suggests it should have the mop.

 

[jacco]

Yep MOP

 

[jacco]

What's the serial number?

 

[ElectricJam]

Impressed 80020XX. Everything else looks to be in order and the guitars shows all the hallmarks of being a 30 some year old guitar. Sad fact is all the vintage electronics were tossed and have since been replaced by the current owner. Has the 50 signifying a LS-50 on the 24th fret, the original Les Paul Reborn decal, double ring TOKAI "Kluson" style tuners, chrome tune-o-matic and stop tail. Another thing that has me stumped is the dark back, I've yet to see another documented vintage '78 Tokai GT dark back. Any thoughts?

 

[jacco]

I owned a 1978 Tokai GT with dark back and I have logged several.
Everything you say points to a legit Tokai.
I you want to be really sure, post some pics of the cavities, or PM me pics and it can be ID'd properly.

 

[jacco]

PS I see that I have 2 LS-50 GTs logged within your serial range with a dark back

 

[ElectricJam]

So, after a prolonged period of indecision I finally took the plunge; and it looks like I've come up golden! I am the happy new owner of a 1978 Tokai Les Paul REBORN LS-50GT guitar. Sure, it wasn't exactly what I was after in a guitar but it was close, convenient and cheap! She sure has had a lot of attention over the years but has lost not a inkling of her original charm. It has a few dings, chips, scratches and the odd gouge here or there but miraculously the top managed to survive virtually unscathed through it all.



There are a few small details that will have to make not: one of the tone knobs has been split in half and super glued back together, the neck pick-up surround is missing one fixing screw, the previous owner changed the wiring; so the original knurled washer ring for the 3-way toggle switch won't reach, missing the original mounting gear for the pick-guard and one of the strap mounts' screw is free-wheeling. So, I'll see to remedying those issues before she gets restrung.



Her serial number is 8002006, which puts her in Japan at 1978. It also has the indicative "50" engraved into the board on the 24th fret, informing us that is a LS-50 model. Inside the neck pick-up route there is a stamp on the neck reading "LS-50GT" in case we weren't sure by now. The dark stain on the back really helps to conceal the 3 piece mahogany back, which you can only make out very vaguely and under the correct lighting. The cap seems to be a solid piece and the guitar is quite hefty in hand, but I just can't make out what timber was used thanks to over spray. Now correct me if I'm wrong but the fretboard looks very Brazilian to me. What do you think?



All in all a beautiful little Leslie!

 

[jacco]

Congrats man!

Not brazilian and not 3P but 2P back me thinks.

 

[ElectricJam]

Thanks Jacco!

She definitely has a 3 piece back, I can make out the joins well enough. If it were a split back it would have a centre seam, wouldn't it?

The board looks a lot like a Brazilian to me. None of that streaky purple rubbish you get with the Indian stuff. But then again I'm no expert, so I must differ to you on this one.

 

[mattbarlow]

very sweet and seems in great general condition!!

 

[ElectricJam]

Thanks!

I was rooting around in my box of accessories that came with the guitar and I noticed that the original harness/circuit-board still had all the fixings on the pot shafts, including the well rusted thumb cutters. Though I am pretty sure I am still missing the original input jack. Which is crap, as it would be nice to be re-use an original. Does anybody here have a surplus of vintage Tokai parts in their stockpile? It's proving a bit harder to find vintage MIJ parts than it is the real deal Gibson stuff.

 

[ElectricJam]

Bump! ^^^

 

[Peter Mac]

Hi guys,
I'm with Jacco about the fingerboard - it is not Brazilian. Tokai did not use Brazilian rosewood on any model other than LS-200 - and only for 2 years then. Even so, it is still a stunning piece of Indian Rosewood.
What might cheer you up is - judging by the serial number - this is possibly among some of the earliest Tokai Les Paul made, early 1978.

Peter Mac

 

[jacco]

Interesting Peter. Never heard of the braz board on LS-200s. Which years were those and where did you get that info?

8002006 certainly isn't one of the early 1978 Tokai LPs btw.

 

[ElectricJam]

Yeah, it looks like she's not a Brazilian BBW after all. No biggie, still a buxom beauty nonetheless.

 

[Peter Mac]

Hi Jacco,
Mac Seshimoto from Tokai Gakki, Japan told me in 1985 that the 1983 and 1984 TLS-200 were available with Brazilian fingerboards.as a special order guitar. As to how many had them he did not say.

The serial number puts this guitar well before the 8003000 mark, when Tokai started the dating stamp, so it would be in the first half of the year, maybe even the first quarter. That's why I said early '78.
Earliest code I have for 1978 is a SilverStar 8000144, and 8000382 for an LS.

Peter

 

[jacco]

Hi Jacco,
Mac Seshimoto from Tokai Gakki, Japan told me in 1985 that the 1983 and 1984 TLS-200 were available with Brazilian fingerboards.as a special order guitar. As to how many had them he did not say.

The serial number puts this guitar well before the 8003000 mark, when Tokai started the dating stamp, so it would be in the first half of the year, maybe even the first quarter. That's why I said early '78.
Earliest code I have for 1978 is a SilverStar 8000144, and 8000382 for an LS.

Peter

Thanks for the info on the braz board 200s Peter, didn't know that. That most likely means all other Tokai LPs before 1985 did not have a braz board as we already thought.

About the serial number and your conclusions;
I thought I already had proven that Tokai didn't serialize their guitars right after completion.
If we look at 1978 up to 80019xx there is a mix of LS, ST, SS & PB models. Then a few hundred LSs and from around 80022xx up to around 80043xx no LSs anymore, only Tokai Fender models.
This is a similar pattern as seen in in 1979-80-81.

If we take 1979, the last LS is 90063xx and this one has a december production stamp in the neck cavity.
There are however 3500 Tokai Fender models produced after this one according to the serial number log, for the last one is around 90099xx.
In this range of 3500 however there are examples with date codes going back to july. So these were produced earlier but serialized later.
You can check that for yourself for I know you have many pictures of ST models with date stamps.

So going back to this 1978 GT with serial 8002006.
The last LS from 1978 logged is 800216x.
The first LS from 1978 logged is 800010x.
That tells me very late 1978, november or december.

 

[Peter Mac]

I thought I already had proven that Tokai didn't serialize their guitars right after completion.

Obviously you're talking only the Gibson-style guitars (LS,LC)
Sorry, I must've missed that post, but it is certainly plausable. Can you send me a link as I am interested to read it.
Whilst the last LS of 1978 was around 80022xx, Tokai may have ceased LS production for the year in May/June.
Take into account the previous year start of production.
I have 3 x 1980 ST-80's with matching neck/ body codes.
S# 00095xx has 10=7 GS, S# 00099xx has 10=9 GS whereas S# 00162xx has 8=5 BB. All body codes in front pup cavity. All allen keyTR.
I'm leaning towards both GS being made Oct'79 and BB being Aug'80. I've run all the other codes I've collected and there are a lot of 0010xxx up with low body/neck stamps 2 ~ 7.
Interestingly, after S# 0011082, I have no other listings for LS, even though ST/SS/TE carry on to 0016xxx.
I have ST codes for 0010815 [ 3=10=OW] and then 0011126 [4=6 GS] which would place the last numbered LS around April 1980.
Just a suggestion but it could indicate that 1980 LS production ceased mid-year - April 1980 - as the Production Model Year was from October 79 to September 1980 for all 1980 models, and this was the Production pattern from the start - we've just been looking at it from a Jan-Dec year.
Thanks for your consideration and I ook forward to your thoughts.

Peter