WHO Was Joe Stack?

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/18/crimesider/entry6221055.shtml

I would say he is just but one of many Americans that are quite pissed at their government :wink:

Maybe he is the new Paul Revere .............................

http://billyeli.com/music.htm
Joe Stack ? Bass, Vocals, Accordion on Spook Lights of Marfa

It's very unfortunate that he set his house on fire with wife and daughter in it and then committed an extreme criminal act to take himself and others out.

I agree that there are MANY problems in the USA but this was an unnecessary loss of lives. Cowardice comes to mind ... along with potential mental illness. Very sad.

f5joe said:

It's very unfortunate that he set his house on fire with wife and daughter in it and then committed an extreme criminal act to take himself and others out.

I agree that there are MANY problems in the USA but this was an unnecessary loss of lives. Cowardice comes to mind ... along with potential mental illness. Very sad.

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all true Joe yet our own government has set our collective house on fire with debt, and that house is burning down all around US, to the tune of over $12 TRILLION :roll:

take every American into account & then spread that pain around; every man, woman, and child in America would owe an equal share of over $40K to pay off that debt.

Cowardice? Yes, our elected officials have for decades been the cowards, afraid to fight the climbing mountain of debt, cowards for failing to fight the Federal Reserve that has enslaved this nation with never ending debt since 1913, cowards for failing to fight the lobbyists that continually seek to add to that debt via every pork barrel project imaginable, cowards for failing to fight the corporations that suck trillions from the average working man & woman?s 401Ks and send that money into a fiscal black hole.
This is just for starters ....................

Mental illness is like insanity, and our government is as guilty as anything on Earth.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

America is caught in a proverbial vicious circle, and it is a collusion of power, money, corruption, and arrogance.

We are seeing where it is leading us; we are reaping what we have sown ........................... yet we sit here every day and watch as the house burns down around us ...........

All true Rich.

I was focused on the individual's acts today.

The US had massive debt after WW2 but it was ALL paid back. The borrowing was very necessary to build for the future.

The current level of borrowing is also necessary, had they not bailed out the pinstriped parasites on Wall St you would have lost ALL your banks, and so would Europe etc. Sadly, some of those banks did not deserve to survive, but that's the end result of capitalism - massive crash or come in and save it, including all the *****.

It's happened several times in my lifetime, although this was the worst crisis I've ever seen. It will happen again.

JVsearch said:

The US had massive debt after WW2 but it was ALL paid back. The borrowing was very necessary to build for the future.

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The UK economy (and the UK) was totally shattered by WW2. Whilst many other countries were largely rebuilt with money from outside, nobody helped to rebuild Britain. The US was asked for help, but would only offer loans. The sum was so great that the UK didn't finish paying off the loans until a few years after 2000.

As Michael Caine once said "not a lot of people know that".

Mike

MIJvintage said:

America is caught in a proverbial vicious circle, and it is a collusion of power, money, corruption, and arrogance.

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Nice to start the day with such a cheerful thread! I guess you must be a Neil Young fan, MIJ? His words, from "Looking For A Leader" were:

America is beautiful but she has an ugly side...

Prophetic?

stratman323 said:

JVsearch said:

The US had massive debt after WW2 but it was ALL paid back. The borrowing was very necessary to build for the future.

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The UK economy (and the UK) was totally shattered by WW2. Whilst many other countries were largely rebuilt with money from outside, nobody helped to rebuild Britain. The US was asked for help, but would only offer loans. The sum was so great that the UK didn't finish paying off the loans until a few years after 2000.

As Michael Caine once said "not a lot of people know that".

Mike

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During World War II it became evident that Britain although still a strong force in the world was no longer a superpower. Britain was in-debted to the USA who sold them weapons, tanks, aircraft etc which left the country bankrupt after the war. Britain asked for financial help but he US also forced the UK to beg for a loan of 5 billion pounds, 50 billion pounds in today's money (which was only paid off in 2007). This was granted, but on condition that the pound was made convertible. This was done, and Britain's foreign currency reserves drained away in weeks and the birth of America as a superpower had begun. This is where Bretton Woods comes into play, by which machanism the US basically deposed the Brtish pound as the reserve currency, and replaced it with the US dollar, thus sealing the fate of Britain as a former world power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system

The Bretton Woods monetary system that is about to go belly up, the world is severely in debt because of the PTB, and then it will be America?s turn to be the begger, along with most other nations.

The few ultra rich have nearly attained their goal of creating a new class of surfs that will eventually be completely passive to any & all wishes of the ultra rich ......................

Ironically Woodrow Wilson commented on this very theme in 1913, the year of the birth of the Federal Reserve, which has never been audited, and whose members remain to this day, faceless & unknown.

Good to see some people waking up Rich. Can't see anything changing any time soon though.

That stuff is all pretty much right, and I dislike organisations like the Fed as much as anyone, especially as Greenspan has to shoulder some of the blame for what's happened.

But to say that the bail outs by Bush, Pres Obama, Europe etc was mostly about making cronies richer is way too simplistic. This crisis was massive, total potential liabilities in the global financial system were estimated at 60 trillion USD, all global banks and insurance would likely have collapsed, life as we know it would have ended... for ordinary people mainly. We would also have seen a handful of corporations end up with everything thanks to widespread fire sales. Sadly the bailouts did also make cronies richer.

Having said that, it was unfair of me to solely blame capitalism, I should have said, capitalism as operated by human beings. In theory, the capitalist system should have stopped this as it was brewing up, but things are too convoluted and over complicated now. I don't believe capitalism could not have stopped this crisis - information was hidden and markets were totally distorted by the actions of a small number of c*nts who should be in jail. It's been a very bad second half of the decade.

My thoughts are, that where you have government controlling the money supply, you don't have capitalism. So don't blame capitalism, blame governments/central banks. OK, the banks got drunk on cheap money and went crazy, but what did anyone expect them to do?

Back to the guy that flew the plane into the IRS... I can empathise with him, but I don't think killing people is the way to go. He should have done what this guy did instead:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10382813&pnum=3

youami said:

My thoughts are, that where you have government controlling the money supply, you don't have capitalism. So don't blame capitalism, blame governments/central banks. OK, the banks got drunk on cheap money and went crazy, but what did anyone expect them to do?

Back to the guy that flew the plane into the IRS... I can empathise with him, but I don't think killing people is the way to go. He should have done what this guy did instead:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10382813&pnum=3

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Sam, agreed; killing others or being destructive is not getting anyone anywhere.
Having said that, I see that many people are talking about this 'incident' and it has certainly produced wide spread attention to ills within government.


AFA governments, money, finance, markets, manipulation, etc., my own personal opinion is that over time, and I mean several centuries, governments have fallen into the trap of those with money, and their whims AFA what they would like the world to be in their minds, and within their plans.
Call me a conspiracy theorist, or a nut, or whatever you care to call me but there have been too many financial events over the course of history, and with too many connections to a very few ultra wealthy individuals, and/or entities to be a series of coincidences.

When a system of money supply i.e. banks (over time) ratchets up the debt level of basically 99% of all nations on planet Earth to untenable & unsustainable levels, there will eventually be an issue of insolvency, devaluation, default, etc., on such a massive & total level that it will only be able to be handled by a single financial issue, instrument, and/or currency.
Call it a fiscal monopoly if you will, in which the only real or imagined solution to the world's debt problems will be addressed via one entity/currency.

The thing is, is that when that point in time does eventually come (and it seems to be occurring much sooner than many had ever imagined) the ones that will be behind the scenes & supposedly in control of the situation will have ironically lost control of the situation, and a revolt on the scale unseen in human history will occur.
Of course, choas will ensue, and life as we know it will nearly instantly cease to exist.

In the 20th century humanity narrowlly escaped killing itself off via massive wars, and a nuclear stand off that really has never gone away.
The 21st century will IMO no doubt be the time for success of this process to finally end the reign of humans as rulers of this world, and the next best thing (whatever that is) will then be taking over.

Hence my recent reply in another thread:

MIJvintage said:

that's the problem with a lot of folks ...............
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=120182&highlight=#120182
my motto is, "live for the moment" because no one knows how long any of us will be around :wink: ................

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Who knows, we may possibly be saved from ourselves, and be wiped out via a pole shift, an asteroid, or by by some other unforeseen & swift event.
One can only hope ..............................

As a friendly ole chap from the Iron Range (Hibbing) of Minnesota once stated, "the times, they are a changin' "....................

Joe Stack was a selfish whiner that left his wife and child without a home after he burned it down - along with the certain legal issues coming after his desire to make news.

He also destroyed the lives of innocent people who simply went to work each day to earn a living (injured many, killed one) and he was flying a plane he owned (???) in light of claiming such hardship.

Scumbag

marcusnieman said:

Joe Stack was a selfish whiner that left his wife and child without a home after he burned it down - along with the certain legal issues coming after his desire to make news.

He also destroyed the lives of innocent people who simply went to work each day to earn a living (injured many, killed one) and he was flying a plane he owned (???) in light of claiming such hardship.

Scumbag

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agreed, and regretably there are many more out there ....................

did anyone read about the guy that recently bulldozed his house, instead of allowing it to be foreclosed?
For real; no shiz ...... http://www.wlwt.com/news/22600154/detail.html
Ironic, it happened in Moscow (Ohio) a name usually associated with 'socialism' ........

I can only imagine that these types of things will be 'happening' with a bit more frequency ...............

MIJvintage said:

marcusnieman said:

Joe Stack was a selfish whiner that left his wife and child without a home after he burned it down - along with the certain legal issues coming after his desire to make news.

He also destroyed the lives of innocent people who simply went to work each day to earn a living (injured many, killed one) and he was flying a plane he owned (???) in light of claiming such hardship.

Scumbag

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agreed, and regretably there are many more out there ....................

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Yeah, and how many of them toil to make ends meet by working two jobs, or struggling with the economy by collecting unemployment, losing houses to foreclosure, etc.

I have more respect for homeless people begging for spare change.

marcusnieman said:

MIJvintage said:

marcusnieman said:

Joe Stack was a selfish whiner that left his wife and child without a home after he burned it down - along with the certain legal issues coming after his desire to make news.

He also destroyed the lives of innocent people who simply went to work each day to earn a living (injured many, killed one) and he was flying a plane he owned (???) in light of claiming such hardship.

Scumbag

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agreed, and regretably there are many more out there ....................

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Yeah, and how many of them toil to make ends meet by working two jobs, or struggling with the economy by collecting unemployment, losing houses to foreclosure, etc.

I have more respect for homeless people begging for spare change.

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Again, agreed but IMO it's not about having or not having respect for someone .....................

.......... ramble .............
I recall when I worked as a parking valet at the downtown Dallas, Tx. flagship Nieman Marcus, twenty something years ago.
At the time it was a very cool/awesome job; great hours, my pockets flush with nice amounts of cash every working day & that was besides having a decent pay check, meeting some really nice snobs, etc., but I do recall one image that will always stay with me.
One of my first days on the job, I recall standing there on the NM lot on Elm street just taking it all in.
I noticed that from time to time, random individuals would look in the trash cans that were on the sidewalks near the street curb, and some would actually eat food items left in the trash cans.
It reminded me of the Biblical story of the beggar at the gate of the rich man.

Getting back to the thread, and your post;
These events I believe are harbingers of our collective current & near future condition; both cause & effect of humanity living in a space of history that is basically 'uncharted waters'.

Another example:
The press in the area in which I live has in recent times made it seem almost acceptable to their readership, concerning the increasing phenomena of elderly couples that have been dying in murder/suicide scenarios.
The papers don?t write up the articles as events with a criminal slant but rather as events that are inevitable, and that are supposedly some how more worthy of attention than a criminal act.
It is frighteningly Orwellian in nature where our collective psyche is attempted to being high jacked to.

We live in very interesting times; that doesn?t mean good, just interesting ...........

youami said:

My thoughts are, that where you have government controlling the money supply, you don't have capitalism.

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Where in the Western world does that happen? Central banks are independent, and in the case of the Fed, privately owned, and operated in the interests of who...

MIJvintage said:

did anyone read about the guy that recently bulldozed his house, instead of allowing it to be foreclosed?
For real; no shiz ...... http://www.wlwt.com/news/22600154/detail.html

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Good luck to him - if he's got a genuine grievance good on him! He will go to jail though, probably wont enjoy that.

MIJvintage said:

Ironic, it happened in Moscow (Ohio) a name usually associated with 'socialism' ........

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WTF! Are you guys STILL afraid of commies over there? :lol:

JVsearch said:

Where in the Western world does that happen? Central banks are independent, and in the case of the Fed, privately owned, and operated in the interests of who...

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Nice; and by whom?

MIJvintage said:

JVsearch said:

Where in the Western world does that happen? Central banks are independent, and in the case of the Fed, privately owned, and operated in the interests of who...

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Nice; and by whom?

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Yep, it's a hell of a question! The Reserve Bank of Australia is a Gov entity but it is supposed to be independent, and to be fair it has seemed pretty independent over the last 10 years (how long I've been looking). The current Governor of the bank seems very serious about economic data driving the bank's strategy.

The obvious difference with the Fed is that the RBA is open to scrutiny, and if necessary, decisions they make can be challenged under Administrative Law (allows people to inexpensively challenge a decision made by any Gov employee), but you can't do that to a private corporation (there may be some procedure specified in the Fed Act). And, what avenues are available to you to challenge the actions of a private corp will amount to nothing, because without a whistleblower you will never be able to find any dirt on them, it will usually have been shredded!

As to whose interests are being served by the Fed, I realise there's a lot of conspiracy theories about it, but in the main I would expect that the Fed acts in the interests of the American people, although probably in a round about sort of way. The old "trickle-down" or "all the boats rise with the water level" type thing. They just couldn't get away with blatant shafting of the people. Whether people like the idea of a board made up of private individuals getting rich off controlling the US money supply or not (I don't) is another smaller question, but can you imagine the information they would be privy to?