LS90 V LS150 - is there really any difference in sound?

So I just bought my first Tokai a few weeks ago, a beautiful cherry burst LS90. Sounds great, looks great. Only problem is I didn't do my research and paid the Australian retail price, and now that I realise I could have got a brand new LS150 online form Japan for pretty much the same price....well I'm sorely tempted!!! I've been a strat man all my life but I have to say I have the LP bug big time now.

I know there was a recent thread on LS90 v LS150 but it still didn't quite answer the question, does the 150 really SOUND any better? As nice as it would be to have one, it would be fairly extravagant if its gonna sound more or less the same as the 90.

And one more question...if anyone could tell me how much import tax (if any) I'd be likely to pay on a guitar from Japan to Australia, that'd be great.

My understanding of it is this: if the goods are worth less than Au$1000, you've got nothing to worry about other than shipping. If they're worth more than that, you'll pay 5% duty, shipping, and then GST on both the duty and the shipping.

So the net result is that if you buy a $999.99 guitar and shipping is $150, you'll end up paying $1150. If you're foolish enough to pay another 2 cents for the guitar, however, you'll have to stump up a total of $1320.

Given all that, it's obviously worth trying to find a guitar just under $1000, perhaps leaving a bit of leeway so there isn't any risk of a last minute currency fluctuation taking you over the limit. That's not going to include a new LS150, unfortunately enough.

But like I said, that is just my understanding, so it's worth checking for yourself.

Brett59 said:

And one more question...if anyone could tell me how much import tax (if any) I'd be likely to pay on a guitar from Japan to Australia, that'd be great.

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For any import into Oz, that is above the $1000.00 threshold, you pay 5% Duty and 10% GST. Plus any other incidentals that may come up.

So, typically in Japan, the shops sell at 20% discount, so your LS150 should sell for 120000JPY (1404.00 AUD).

Shipping is typically $110 USD (120 AUD)

These exchange rates are based on xe.com figures, and when you actually buy the guitar, the rate will be 2~3% more expensive.

In theory, to get the LS150 into your hands it would cost:-

Guitar and shipping $1542.00 (really, when your statement comes through $1588.00 AUD.

Duty (only paid on the guitar) $70.20
GST (paid on guitar + shipping) $154.20

So, in the end, it would have cost you $1588.00 + $70.20 + 154.20 =$1812.40

Occasionally, rarely but it happens, AQIS will request that it passes through quarantine (because it is made of wood), and this is also extra.

Last time I heard, an LS90 is $1349.00, full retail in Oz and have been for nearly 2 years now. So, there is an internet myth out there about buying guitars online from Japan, and landing them in Oz way cheaper than in shops. In fact it does hold true for every popular brand in Oz, except Tokai. I have done some homework.

Where in Oz are you Brett?

Am I getting this right?
You seem to have proven the myth in the case of Tokai as well!?

$1800 odd to bring in an LS-150 from Japan when the retail price in Aus is something in the region of $3K?

Same LS-90 calculation:
90,000 - 72,000 (20% discount) - $847
Add shipping of $120

Total = $967 (no duty or GST on amounts under $1000)

Compare to the retail price of $1349, and you're going to bring one in from Japan, right? Have I got this totally wrong?

3K for an LS150 in Oz......huh?

RRP is $2199 AUD. Don't know where 3K came from, the internet LOL?

20%off is $1759. With warranty.

The LS90, when you do not have to include the Duty or GST, does work out cheaper. Unless you have been bringing in a stream of guitars and the ATO send up a flag, you bypass around 15% on top.

A distro does not have this advantage. In fact the costs to ship anything into Oz on a commercial basis has gone through the roof. You probably know the $150 here, $200 there, $75 over there charges plus the fees that seem outrageous. $50 transport each way to and from Quarantine, etc and so on ad nauseum. Then, of course your Broker likes to be paid too. The ships probably need a tune up, because the Bunker Fees are just getting bigger too.

Anyway. an LS90 at 20% discount is $1079. With warranty.

There is no "no returns" policy in the fine print either

If you could buy a Gibbo or Fiender on Oz at close to the similar prices on a pro-rata basis as you can source from the USA......I'm listening.

I wonder what Brett paid, because the "internet myth" is incongruent with what you can actually do here in Oz, especially if you are not tyre kicking and actually buying.

stratmoto said:

3K for an LS150 in Oz......huh?

RRP is $2199 AUD. Don't know where 3K came from, the internet LOL?

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I'm afraid so! I was basing it off this:
http://rivermusic.com.au/index.php?page=product&id=566

stratmoto said:

The LS90, when you do not have to include the Duty or GST, does work out cheaper. Unless you have been bringing in a stream of guitars and the ATO send up a flag, you bypass around 15% on top.

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I was factoring in a 20% discount at the Japan end, and there's no guarantee that you will always get that. And yep, if you're Joe Blow bringing in a guitar for himself you're alright, but I wasn't trying to suggest that someone in the business should be doing it, that would lead to dire consequences at some point.

stratmoto said:

Anyway. an LS90 at 20% discount is $1079. With warranty.

There is no "no returns" policy in the fine print either

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Quite right, for $100 you get a warranty and the possibility of returning it, and if you're near the seller then you can play it first. These things are easily worth $100 or more.

stratmoto said:

If you could buy a Gibbo or Fender in Oz at close to the similar prices on a pro-rata basis as you can source from the USA......I'm listening.

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No chance... and I'm well aware of the stranglehold that goes on with those brands. Shipping is a major problem, and will usually be in the region of $400 USD as the USPS will no longer ship a boxed guitar to Australia. I wonder why...

stratmoto said:

I wonder what Brett paid, because the "internet myth" is incongruent with what you can actually do here in Oz, especially if you are not tyre kicking and actually buying.

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I understand what you're saying, and I will keep it in mind! :wink:

Finally, I agree with you about the internet myth with regard to Tokai as well, just wanted to explain better for people.

Here's a funny one - I did that LS-90 calculation again without the discount at the Japanese side and it will cost Joe Blow $1347 to bring one in! :lol:

At the current exchange rate there will be duty and GST.

What is great about this, is that the retail price in Japan and Australia are exactly the same. Now, this means us lot in Australia are getting a discount in the form of no extra on top of the Japanese retail price to cover the shipping costs!

Apologies to the OP for hijacking.

The LS-150/160 should sound a bit better because it has better electronics (pots, wiring etc).
But that doesn't necessarily mean you will like the sound more, you may prefer the sound of your LS-90, who knows?

The long tenon neck joint is unlikely to offer any tone advantage over the medium tenon joint in the LS-90, the tenon on the 150 is literally half an inch longer. The wood is precision carved in both cases so the glued surfaces match tightly and provide a very stable joint.

I like long tenons because that's the way they did it in the old days when people put craftsmanship before making more money. However it's arguable whether any LP needs a better joint than what's on the LS-90 to still be a great LP.

The other higher specs on the LS-150 will take a long time to show the improvement in tone eg nitro finish (if there is even going to be an improvement from the finish). IMO thin finish is the main thing to have.

Also the LS-150 is now an LS-160 so it will basically cost you about $2k to land one here, unless it slips by without customs collecting the duty and GST.

Thanks for replies everyone. In terms of the "internet myth" - its seems its no myth if you can get one under a grand and from the limited research I've done so far it seems you can get a LS90 for well under a grand, which probably includes a case. I paid over $1400 for mine including the case. Couldn't budge em any lower than that, not that I tried very hard because I had been looking at Gibsons up to that point and $1400 seemed like a steal relative to a Gibson - which I guess it is. Obviously I wish I had of been a bit more patient and got one direct from Japan, but it's still a great guitar so a few hundred bucks either way ain't gonna matter in the long run.

I suppose if there is no great difference in sound between the 90 and the 150 I'll just stick with what I have for the time being. I'm just being greedy wanting another one so soon! But I'm sure you all understand.

I guess what really got me excited about getting a 150 was the pic of the brown sunburst in the "Show us your 150 pics" thread, the outdoor pic. I want one of those! One day....

Brett59 said:

I guess what really got me excited about getting a 150 was the pic of the brown sunburst in the "Show us your 150 pics" thread, the outdoor pic. I want one of those! One day....

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They are out there. Patience, grasshopper.

How much does a Toyota cost in Australia, the same as it costs in Japan?

I just had for a while LC95 and LS135F which is pretty close to 150s. What I found better in LS135 was that it was way easier to keep in tune. I cant say was that caused by better tuners, saddle, bridge, tailpiece or all them together. I wouldnt mind something like pickups, pots or wiring. I liked the long tenon too, no matter can you hear it or not My ex LS135F might have little bit stronger acoustic sound than my ex LC95. However it was still pretty dull (weight was 4.6kg/10.2lbs), maybe 150s are acoustically better.

Diamond said:

How much does a Toyota cost in Australia, the same as it costs in Japan?

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Base model Corolla manual 5 door hatch - RRP $21,740 (1,887,000 Yen).

I can't find the Japanese price (not one that I can be sure about). We need help from a Japanese forum member.

karppi said:

I just had for a while LC95 and LS135F which is pretty close to 150s. What I found better in LS135 was that it was way easier to keep in tune. I cant say was that caused by better tuners, saddle, bridge, tailpiece or all them together. I wouldnt mind something like pickups, pots or wiring. I liked the long tenon too, no matter can you hear it or not My ex LS135F might have little bit stronger acoustic sound than my ex LC95. However it was still pretty dull (weight was 4.6kg/10.2lbs), maybe 150s are acoustically better.

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I thought they had the same hardware (bridge, TP and tuners)? And yeah pots and wiring can easily be changed, as well as pickups too.

That's pretty heavy for a LP, not insane, but still heavy. Guitars do vary a bit as they are made of wood, some may be dull, bright or in the middle somewhere. An audition before buying is always better, although quite difficult nowadays depending on where you live.

JVsearch said:

I thought they had the same hardware (bridge, TP and tuners)?

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LS135F (and LS150) has upgraded hardware.

BRIDGE : HLS-VB(Brass Saddle)Bridge &HLS-VT Aluminum TailPiece
TUNERS : Gotoh SD90-SL

http://www.kurosawagakki.com/items/detail/64076.html

That's pretty heavy for a LP, not insane, but still heavy. Guitars do vary a bit as they are made of wood, some may be dull, bright or in the middle somewhere. An audition before buying is always better, although quite difficult nowadays depending on where you live.

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That's right. And heavy guitar can still be very resonant sounding and low in weight doesn't mean that the guitar is necessarily good sounding one. And after all something like "good sound" is always up to your ears

An objective reviewer here in South Africa took a look at three of Diamond's Tokais, an LS90, a 92S (or whatever they're called now: two P90s) and the LS150 that I wound up with.

He reckoned that there wasn't much in it, but that the LS150 was lighter, and had a more "airy," woody, sound. If that's what you're into (which I am) it might be worth the extra.

My feeling is that the single-piece, lightweight back contributes something to complexity of tone. Not much, but enough to tip you into 50s LP sounds if that's what you're after. The rest of the difference is just hardware and electronics.

Ok so next question is, how much would it cost to upgrade the bridge, tuners, electronics etc on an LS90 to LS150 specifications? That would get you most of the way there wouldn't it?

Have to say I'm more than happy with the LS90 though, jammed with my band last night, it really is a sweet sounding thing.

Brett59 said:

Ok so next question is, how much would it cost to upgrade the bridge, tuners, electronics etc on an LS90 to LS150 specifications? That would get you most of the way there wouldn't it?

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It certainly would - and it wouldn't be too pricey, I imagine. That's what makes the LS90 such stupendous bang for buck.

I do like to think though, that the acoustic quality of the LS150 comes from the light weight, one piece back.

A faber bridge and tailpiece from tokaiguitar.de will cost you less than 70 Euros. You could also get the tonelock kit for around 25 Euros. If you go for a locking bridge it's about another 20 Euros. You'll have better hardware than the LS150 then and IMO it's a worthwhile upgrade.

singemonkey said:

I do like to think though, that the acoustic quality of the LS150 comes from the light weight, one piece back.

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What's the weight of an average LS150?