solid or veneer? ( the blues & the honest truth!! )

[villager]

so lets sum up all the actual ''proof'' shall we, so far we have seen ONE centre seamed veneer topped ls-120 which has been previously mistaken for a solid top, (although with that evidence of delaminating god knows how)...that would be wisebobs..so we can accept for sure that there are indeed centre seamed laminate topped LS-120's out there, and indeed some others have probably been mistaken for solid tops ...

but to call this conclusive proof that most of the LS-120's are presumed to be laminate is a pretty big jump.....

they may be, they may not be, but to base a conclusion on one guitar is a lttle far fetched in my view,

I am not arguing the point either way here by the way, simply summing up the evidence so far...

if she floats she's a witch......

...

 

[TOKAI JOE]

8) ok villager. so you were just being ironic there thats all........

lets stop talking about this now between you and i.

we have talked more than enough and there have been

so much proofs already. so let everyone judge and decide

their final opinion now..........we all did good jobs here huh.....

whether right or wrong........ so everyone, read all the proofs

carefully and reach out to the truth........j

8) j.

 

[JohnA]

....
but to call this conclusive proof that most of the LS-120's are presumed to be laminate is a pretty big jump.....

they may be, they may not be, but to base a conclusion on one guitar is a lttle far fetched in my view,

I am not arguing the point either way here by the way, simply summing up the evidence so far...

if she floats she's a witch......

...

Joe has certainly made me think twice, but you are right, one, or even a handfull of samples isn't proof, I think we are a long way from proving or disproving Joe's theory. I'll do my bit, I'll have a very close look at mine in the near future

 

[bobwise]

"ONE centre seamed veneer topped ls-120 which has been previously mistaken for a solid top, (although with that evidence of delaminating god knows how)"

The delaminating area is actually hard to see. I didn't notice it until about a month after I received it -- unless the light hits it correctly it's pretty much invisible. It's not like there's a loose sheet of wood flapping around. I think it's very possible that Ochay never noticed it when he had it. (It's also possible that the veneer hadn't separated when he had it and it happened because of temperature changes during shipping.)

The seller was one of the experts here and he had assured me it had a solid top. Everything I had read here said an '80 LS120 should have a solid top. And I had pulled the pickups and looked in the cavities when I did the first string change and couldn't see a veneer (and the center seams lined up and there were no clear discontinuities of the grain lines).

So when I eventually noticed the ripples/waves I figured it had to be a very unusual distortion of a solid top, even though it looked like delaminating veneer. The areas that have lifted rise above the binding very slightly -- literally a hair's width. You can't see under it -- the bottom of the veneer is still below the top of the binding. You can press hard on the lifted areas and they don't move -- they feel hard and solid. When you tap on them, they sound the same as the rest of the top -- no hollow drumming sound. I've never seen a solid guitar like that, but I've seen solid boards on furniture, decks, and fences do that. Moisture works through the finish, the wood swells and distorts, then when it dries it has ripples and waves in it (usually cracks and splits too, but not always).

If it was lifted high enough that I could see under the veneer it would have been obvious that it was veneer. If it moved when I pressed on it, it would have been obvious. If tapping on the raised portions sounded any different it would have been obvious.

When I scraped the finish in the neck pickup cavity there were places where I couldn't see the veneer at all. In other places it looked like villager's pic where it kind of looked like there might be a veneer but also looked like maybe it was solid. In a couple of places it's almost as clear as DaveWW's, and combined with the ripples near the strap button that's enough to convince me that it's veneered.

But even in the scraped areas that look like there's veneer, it's nowhere near as clearly obvious as the veneer on my Korean Hamer. I could just as easily look at the scraped areas where I can't see the veneer and convince myself that the other areas are illusions and that the "delaminated" portions really are just swollen, distorted solid wood.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

"ONE centre seamed veneer topped ls-120 which has been previously mistaken for a solid top, (although with that evidence of delaminating god knows how)"

The delaminating area is actually hard to see. I didn't notice it until about a month after I received it -- unless the light hits it correctly it's pretty much invisible. It's not like there's a loose sheet of wood flapping around. I think it's very possible that Ochay never noticed it when he had it. (It's also possible that the veneer hadn't separated when he had it and it happened because of temperature changes during shipping.)

The seller was one of the experts here and he had assured me it had a solid top. Everything I had read here said an '80 LS120 should have a solid top. And I had pulled the pickups and looked in the cavities when I did the first string change and couldn't see a veneer (and the center seams lined up and there were no clear discontinuities of the grain lines).

So when I eventually noticed the ripples/waves I figured it had to be a very unusual distortion of a solid top, even though it looked like delaminating veneer. The areas that have lifted rise above the binding very slightly -- literally a hair's width. You can't see under it -- the bottom of the veneer is still below the top of the binding. You can press hard on the lifted areas and they don't move -- they feel hard and solid. When you tap on them, they sound the same as the rest of the top -- no hollow drumming sound. I've never seen a solid guitar like that, but I've seen solid boards on furniture, decks, and fences do that. Moisture works through the finish, the wood swells and distorts, then when it dries it has ripples and waves in it (usually cracks and splits too, but not always).

If it was lifted high enough that I could see under the veneer it would have been obvious that it was veneer. If it moved when I pressed on it, it would have been obvious. If tapping on the raised portions sounded any different it would have been obvious.

When I scraped the finish in the neck pickup cavity there were places where I couldn't see the veneer at all. In other places it looked like villager's pic where it kind of looked like there might be a veneer but also looked like maybe it was solid. In a couple of places it's almost as clear as DaveWW's, and combined with the ripples near the strap button that's enough to convince me that it's veneered.

But even in the scraped areas that look like there's veneer, it's nowhere near as clearly obvious as the veneer on my Korean Hamer. I could just as easily look at the scraped areas where I can't see the veneer and convince myself that the other areas are illusions and that the "delaminated" portions really are just swollen, distorted solid wood.

8) your precious story wisebob........thanks.....j

 

[villager]

hey bob would have been obvious to me m8...

but then maybe I have seen a few more than you...

 

[bobwise]

BTW, my user name isn't a made up name. I didn't mean for it to imply that I'm "wise" -- I'm pretty foolish most of the time. It's just the name I was born with: Robert Lawrence Wise, but everyone calls me "Bob".

 

[MIJvintage]

The seller was one of the experts here and he had assured me it had a solid top

proof yet again that there are no 'experts' but only people with thier own particular experience

This is excatly the reason that coolcat54 could not sell me a rare Greco; because he could not properly respond to legimate questions

sellers need to realize that potential buyers need real information, not BS, and potential buyers need to realize that they need to ask the hard questions, and if a seller cannot answer properly, then it's time to walk ..................

 

[villager]

heh thats cool bob. never thought anything different ..

I am also not wise, either..just a tokai afficianado..

 

[villager]

i think all potential LS-120 buyers should assume they are veneer then there would be no problems....


although it makes no difference to the tone ...just to the ''snobbery''level..

 

[villager]

8) ok villager. so you were just being ironic there thats all........

lets stop talking about this now between you and i.

we have talked more than enough and there have been

so much proofs already. so let everyone judge and decide

their final opinion now..........we all did good jobs here huh.....

whether right or wrong........ so everyone, read all the proofs

carefully and reach out to the truth........j

8) j.

yes lets all read the single ''proof'' and all be swayed by Joes insistance thet it ''prooves'' anything..

simple really

assume they are laminate, and be happy if you get a solid one ..since no-one can tell the difference if its a centre matched seam without destroying the guitar...

who fucking cares anyway...

 

[MIJvintage]

i think all potential LS-120 buyers should assume they are veneer then there would be no problems....


although it makes no difference to the tone ...just to the ''snobbery''level..

if someone wanted a LS-120 & wanted to choose one that would not have the potential to have a veneer delamination issue, then they would be wise to seek out a solid topped LS-120, not a veener topped one

it has little if anything to do with the tone the instrument produces, and it has nothing to do with with, "the ''snobbery''level"

 

[TOKAI JOE]

i think all potential LS-120 buyers should assume they are veneer then there would be no problems....


although it makes no difference to the tone ...just to the ''snobbery''level..

8) it shouldnt make any difference to the tone since
tokai presented it very proudly, confidently with
the ultra thin (0.4mm) great quality veneer......



8) j.

 

[villager]

i think all potential LS-120 buyers should assume they are veneer then there would be no problems....


although it makes no difference to the tone ...just to the ''snobbery''level..

if someone wanted a LS-120 & wanted to choose one that would not have the potential to have a veneer delamination issue, then they would be wise to seek out a solid topped LS-120, not a veener topped one

it has little if anything to do with the tone the instrument produces, and it has nothing to do with with, "the ''snobbery''level"

rich, out of interest how many have you seen that delaminated ?

 

[bolero]

I would say it has nothing to do with snobbery, but all to do with sorting out accurately what the deal is with these old tokai's

and a LOT of us F***ing care....after all, why does this forum exist in the first place? to share & learn accurate information

also it avoids guitars being misrepresented in sales

it's good for everybody


there's a lot of mystery surrounding them, and not a lot of hard facts

 

[villager]

sorry, snobbery was the wrong word to use, my error.. ..but the whole point of this thread is that there is no absolute accuracy, and its very very difficult to tell with these guitars..

as I said before .. best to assume they are all veneer.. If you make an enquiry about whether a particular LS-120 is solid or veneer, do you think the seller is going to be 100% sure? most people would see a centre seam matched all the way through and immediately think ''solid top'' combine that with the fact that the veneer used is next to invisible in thickness, and it becomes impossible to be 100% sure, unless you actually break the laminate edge to check, and no seller is going to do that..

for example the one i scraped away to check, I am near certain thats its a solid top, I have checked and checked, yet there are many who look at the pic and see a seam of some type.. that example is the most scrutinised top ever, and we still cannot agree if it is solid or veneer!!!

if you want to be 100% sure you are getting a solid top then the only choice is to buy a plaintop, or a flametop model which is absolutely known to have a solid top....

having said that, for playability and tone, I prefer my Greco 1200 veneer topped guitars to most of the solid topped guitars I own..

but thats a subjective preference and personal to me..

 

[Cali Girl]

who f*(&%&g cares anyway...

I think it makes a difference, especially when we talk about Tokai in the context of a replica of a 1958-60 Les Paul Standard. There is also a massive price jump from a vintage LS-80 to a LS-120 or LS-200. We have found some "myths" or maybe "wishful thinking":

1) Figured top guitars may be veneer. Deviates from solid top spec of vintage Les Paul.

2) Neck tenon. Shorter than vintage Les Paul, can't consider it a long tenon.

3) Woods. Tokai says "no Honduras mahogany" and I doubt they used Brazilian Rosewood.

 

[villager]

I really don't care at all if its laminate or solid when I am playing it, thats what I mean..

with a 59 you can keep going, heh the pickups, the glue, the wood etc etc, none of these can be replicated as in some cases the materials dont exist anymore, and in other cases its just impossible to replicate, for example it is impossible to make a new PAF, since its new it will be different.. even if you used old magnets, and old wire, they still wouldnt have had 40 years of de-gaussing and interaction like a real 59 PAF, so the only way to get exact 59 specs in every way is, unfortunately to buy a 59, and then hope you get a good sounding one!!

 

[Cali Girl]

I understand what you mean.

I am just pointing out some of the common myths I have read from sellers and ebay about Tokai.

 

[villager]

I sometimes laugh out loud at things I read in ebay descriptions...

to my knowledge all early tokais are normal tenon, and non honduran, .. but I have seen some very ''Braz looking '' boards on some of them so the jurys out on that one for me still, and if its not a 150 or 200 model I always assume its a veneer top when i buy in Japan.. but again that is not set in stone either...