solid or veneer? ( the blues & the honest truth!! )

[bolero]

I see in that locked thread Tokai Joe psoted details from the catalog:


@ the ls50 had 3 piece top and 3 piece back. (poly)
@ the ls60 had 2 piece top and 2 piece back. (poly)
@ the ls80 had 2 piece top and 1 piece back. (nitro)
@ the ls100 had 2 piece top and 1 piece back. w/dimarzio. (100-200 nitro
@ the ls120 had 2 piece laminated top and 1 piece back. w/dimarzio.
@ the ls150 had 2 piece solid figured top and 1 piece back. w/dimarzio.
@ the ls200 had 2 piece solid flamed top and 1 piece back. w/best pus.



does this mean the LS60, LS50, LS80 had a solid top?


they were plain tops, so they wouldn't have a reason to laminate the tops, correct?

fwiw in villagers closeup LS120 photos in the locked thread, I can clearly see the laminate top piece: there is a thin horizontal line representing a different piece of wood around the pup cavity, less than 1mm thick




*edit* changed title of this post to be more appropriate to the content, as this discussion covers more than just LS60 info & is a good reference for everybody.
.

 

[RyanC]

Yes - LS50, 60 and 80 all were solid tops.

I saw the same seam, but considering how obvious it was in the pics as well as Mark's knowledge of these guitars, I believe it was probably where the lacquer finish ran over the edge and pooled ever so slightly. Just my two cents.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

8) yep ls50/60/80 in those days before 1982 were all solid top.
my tokaiman said that tokai used hard maple not soft maple
for the solid top. for the laminated veneer they used
canadian sycamore now and then. sorry about the locked thread.
my bad joke and mistake. sorry. it could have been going
more if it wasnt locked last night. wisebob did his sacrifice really
precious and rare, i wanted more to follow his to prove it better.
that top 1mm or so yellow part totally covered by the finish seems
" IT " to me as all the laminate is only 1mm or so thick. wisebob
had to see the inside of it to see it so i guess thats it. what else??
anyways sorry about the locked thread it was my mistake.
i hope someday the ls120 mystery will be solved completely
somehow. thanks again wisebob!






8) j.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

http://rsdaizo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Tokai%20Les%20Paul%20page%201.shtml


8) hey guys do you remember this japa guy here named "DAIZO" before?
he was very well knowledgeble but where has he gone to since huh?
this research of his is really good, wish someone will translate it
good in english. you will understand a lot of things about tokai
and ls60/80 by this. anyone try someday somehow please!

who else japanese were here before? daizo, hisashi, koiz .........



8) j.

 

[bruceboomstick]

Dunno if someone could clarify something. Laminate and Vaneer seem to being used interchangably on numerous threads.

As I understood it Vaneer is a thin slice of of pressed wood applied to the top of another wood for cosmetic reasons.

Whereas I understood that laminate was a many strips of thinner wood sandwiched together to make a thicker lump that could be take the place of something better.

So an LS75F (or whatever it is this week) has a thin vaneer over a solid top, wheras a ALS43 (again whatever it is right now) will not have a maple cap, but rather a cap made entirely out of laminate.

Reason why I ask is that Vaneering has always been considered a bit of a skilled job in woodworking, wheras laminate is just considered cheap.

Sorry for going off topic (sort of)

 

[TOKAI JOE]

8) greco's one should be called the laminates maybe because like
"big ed" from germany showed us it was the 2 layer thing, one is
the spruce bottom sheet and another is the maple top sheet.

tokai's one should be called "veneer" then cause its a single layer
sheet of canadian sycamore which was pressed so heavy to very
thin like 1mm or so. nothing else is contained in this sycamore wood
sheet except sycamore itself so i guess we should call it "veneer"
purely. it sure sounds better than "the laminate"........

so as far as tokai goes, its the veneer ........




8) j.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

To "wisebob" about your ls120........

thank you very much wisebob the other day.
that was exactly what i was talkin about and waiting to hear!
anyways thank you so much again for your post.
your courage to test on your beloved gtr and accept the truth.
thanks. now the world maybe began to know and accept
the truth slowly and surely........

your gtr is however always excellent and the same gtr even we now
know it had a beautiful make up on her. her under the make up real
maple body must be also beautiful if we could see it coz thats why
she is sounding so good right? if she isnt great quality then no way
we feel she is great. from her voice, feel, dignity, and all those.....

the tokai veneer is super thin i was told by the tokai man.
very very thin probably thinner than the other companies
stuff like greco and........
its made of good canadian sycamore and pressed so thin so rigid
by super heavy tons of pressure, in the end its a very hard good
concentrated maple wood sheet. together the maple solid body part
and this hard sheet the matching is not bad and no bad influences
really i guess. thats why they could do it proudly then and
those gtrs are still all sounding great and tasty today and we are so
in love with them. its not any unusual for most women to have at
least some make ups today as their regular faces so the matter is
whether its good natural honest healthy make ups or bad make ups.
if is it a good natural one thats just good for her little extra
good looks. so like you said. your gtr is still fantastic to you like
nothing else basically......sorry to disappoint you first by the truth
but the truth is the truth and its always better than the BS
sooner or laters. when this "veneer" truth is actually
not bad one and even something reasonably very useful, even
beautiful, making good sense. after all, the new truth isnt bad at
all?........i really think so and hope you really think so too by now.


trust the tokai motto now and then especially from the good old days.

"quality before quantity"

now u know your veneer is a beautiful real deal quality veneer
not any BS veneer..........

thanks wisebob. keep pickin n good day somewhere in usa!


tokai joe from yokohama, japan.





8)

 

[JVsearch]

There's no doubt that a full thickness solid maple cap on a mahogany body is an important part of the Les Paul sound, I doubt that a thin veneer put on top of it has any effect on the tone of the guitar.

But... the original Les Pauls had no veneer, so this is probably why people want non-veneered tops, or why it is a desirable feature. This also explains why many of the original LPs did not have very flamey tops, the highly flamed maple pieces were in the minority.

 

[greco_burst]

There's no doubt that a full thickness solid maple cap on a mahogany body is an important part of the Les Paul sound, I doubt that a thin veneer put on top of it has any effect on the tone of the guitar.

But... the original Les Pauls had no veneer, so this is probably why people want non-veneered tops, or why it is a desirable feature. This also explains why many of the original LPs did not have very flamey tops, the highly flamed maple pieces were in the minority.

Yes, of the existing 58 59 60 Gibson Sunburst Les Pauls, the percentage of the ones with any figure on the top is less than one third. Out of that, about half have figured tops.

 

[bobwise]

I was happy to learn the truth about mine. I want to learn every detail about the masterpiece I'm blessed to own.

Of course I was a little disappointed. A half inch thick piece of maple that's flamed all the way through is luxurious, extravagant, and expensive. And a solid flame top is "honest" -- the appearance is intrinsic to the wood, it's not an unnecessary decorative piece of wood applied to the functional slab of wood. Just about everyone would rather have a solid flame top than a veneered top. And the veneer gives the Gibson snobs one more reason to deny the truth about what an excellent guitar it is. :wink:

But that doesn't make me disappointed in the guitar. It's great sounding, great feeling, great playing, great looking, and that's all that matters. If it turned out to have a hidden balsa wood core or some other "deep dark secret" I wouldn't really care.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

I was happy to learn the truth about mine. I want to learn every detail about the masterpiece I'm blessed to own.

Of course I was a little disappointed. A half inch thick piece of maple that's flamed all the way through is luxurious, extravagant, and expensive. And a solid flame top is "honest" -- the appearance is intrinsic to the wood, it's not an unnecessary decorative piece of wood applied to the functional slab of wood. Just about everyone would rather have a solid flame top than a veneered top. And the veneer gives the Gibson snobs one more reason to deny the truth about what an excellent guitar it is. :wink:

But that doesn't make me disappointed in the guitar. It's great sounding, great feeling, great playing, great looking, and that's all that matters. If it turned out to have a hidden balsa wood core or some other "deep dark secret" I wouldn't really care.

8) you are very cool man bob, no doubt! ........j

 

[JVsearch]

A half inch thick piece of maple that's flamed all the way through is luxurious, extravagant, and expensive. And a solid flame top is "honest" -- the appearance is intrinsic to the wood, it's not an unnecessary decorative piece of wood applied to the functional slab of wood. Just about everyone would rather have a solid flame top than a veneered top.

I'll take a plain top any day, because I personally find it impossible to justify the additional expense for a flame top. But yes, I would rather have no veneer, mostly because I have an irrational fear of it lifting off. But this is so unlikely that it should not be a factor in a purchase decision. Having said that, if a flame top (solid or veneered) that I loved came along, and I could afford it, the flame wouldn't stop me from buying it! I guess what I mean is, that if the overall guitar gets you excited and you like it, then it's a great guitar.

But that doesn't make me disappointed in the guitar. It's great sounding, great feeling, great playing, great looking, and that's all that matters. If it turned out to have a hidden balsa wood core or some other "deep dark secret" I wouldn't really care.

Funnily enough I once had a Gibson LP with a block of balsa wood in the middle of it!

 

[JVsearch]

There's no doubt that a full thickness solid maple cap on a mahogany body is an important part of the Les Paul sound, I doubt that a thin veneer put on top of it has any effect on the tone of the guitar.

But... the original Les Pauls had no veneer, so this is probably why people want non-veneered tops, or why it is a desirable feature. This also explains why many of the original LPs did not have very flamey tops, the highly flamed maple pieces were in the minority.

Yes, of the existing 58 59 60 Gibson Sunburst Les Pauls, the percentage of the ones with any figure on the top is less than one third. Out of that, about half have figured tops.

Didn't realise it was that small a proportion! A unique selling point for solid flame tops - rarity.

 

[DaveWW]

Hi folks,

I decided to photograph the cavity in my LS138SEB since we know it definiteley has a sycamore veneer top. To be honest I expected that the veneer would be clearly visible but it isn't. The only give away after cleaning the cavity side wall is that the veneer centre joint is not matched down through the maple cap which has no centre joint. I thought the pic would help show that it is easy to spot a veneered top, but it isn't! I think my pic below shows the opposite!

Dave

 

[Cali Girl]

Wow that is thin. Without the different seams it would certainly look to be a solid top!

 

[TOKAI JOE]

8) so now its like what we were talkin about, more sure examples
coming out........its really "ultra thin veneer covered by the finish"
so invisible in most of the cases? how can we keep insisting its the solid
when the official catalogs and the gtrs themselves are saying " NO !!!! "
thanks dave for your effort on your gtr. more welcome if ok.............



8) j.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

8) so for so far do we all basically agree with the truth that except
some rare exceptions most of the laminated veneer top gtrs which
officially declared by the companies are basically all the laminated
veneer top gtrs? the veneer cant be seen so easily because
its about 1mm or so thickness more or less and its always
completely covered by the finish? like "wisebob" put it
in a simple nice line on the other day, even many of us still
hope if it is the solid? ........just stating the temporary conclusion
here again. no offence to anyone seriously. just more proofs
and interesting stories are welcome........j


"Even in person, up close, and knowing the veneer is there, it doesn't look like it's veneered when it's covered by the finish."



8) j.

 

[JohnA]

Dave, that veneer is so thin you can't even see it! I always thought my LS120 was solid, but the thickness (or lack of it) of that veneer has given me some doubt!

That one Villager posted the other day was surely solid though, you could see the grain pattern from the top running down through the cap.

 

[bobwise]

Regarding the grain lines matching -- here's a pic of the flame maple veneer pickguard that I put on my Strat.

I bought the guard on eBay with the maple veneer already glued to the plastic backing. I didn't take a sheet of veneer and position it so it matched the grain lines of the alder body -- it's pure random chance that the grain lined up pretty well. They actually appear to line up better in person -- in resizing the pic a lot of the fainter grain lines disappeared.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

john A says........

"That one Villager posted the other day was surely solid though, you could see the grain pattern from the top running down through the cap."



8) no offence to you ofcourse john A but that grain pattern match
was only partly to me it seemed. maybe 5 or 6 lines sure only??
take a look at wisebob's strat pic here you see the grains in
the cutaway meeting the grains on the pickguard nicely.
this can happen sometimes amazingly but not so super rarely.
i have my gtrs having similar phenomonons on them if only
partly matched........


thanks again for wisebob for a great proof and explanation here.
now do you want the catalog bob? let me know before i forget.
thanks!





8) j.