DaveWW
Well-known member
JohnA said:
Yep, I don't know which side of the fence I'm on now! :-?
Dave
solid or veneer? ( the blues & the honest truth!! )
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Yep, I don't know which side of the fence I'm on now! :-?
Dave
leadguitar_323
Well-known member
Good stuff Joe, Those veneers are extremely thin and with a bit of clever placement you would never know that it was anything but solid. There would be hundreds of Tokai's being sold as solid tops, we've already seen a couple of examples here recently. I now think that there were some solid tops but not as common as some on here would have you think, i also think it is pretty petty when a few of our senior members on here don't get their own way that they try and have Joe removed from this forum. Grow up guys you haven't proved Joe wrong at all and he always said that there were some solid tops, just not as many as you think. Ochays 120 was a good example, this guy knows his stuff but he still didn't pick the one he sold to Bob.
Keep posting Joe i certainly appreciate what you have to offer on this forum even if you do lose the plot now and again...... :wink:
Mick
Keep posting Joe i certainly appreciate what you have to offer on this forum even if you do lose the plot now and again...... :wink:
Mick
leadguitar_323 said:
8) thank you so much mickman. you good guys were always very
welcome and it was fun for me to do em. hopefully most of the infos
i have brought from japan to here are very useful and helpful
and worth something. i am tired some now so i am goin to a long
vacation soon to STKN, CA in this summer. hope you guys have
a good summer too in wherever you guys are. keep pickin! ....j
8)
:wink: 8)JohnA
Well-known member
I for one wouldn't want to see Joe leave the forum, but at the same time I can see how some of his comments might upset a few people :wink:
If LS-120's are mostly laminate it doesn't change the fact they are amazing guitars, and knowing one-way or another has got to be better than guessing.
One day soon when I have some time I'll take a closer look at mine, I WAS sure they were both solid, but would like to know for certain. I'll post the results when I have them.
If LS-120's are mostly laminate it doesn't change the fact they are amazing guitars, and knowing one-way or another has got to be better than guessing.
One day soon when I have some time I'll take a closer look at mine, I WAS sure they were both solid, but would like to know for certain. I'll post the results when I have them.
Mick51
Well-known member
TOKAI JOE said:
I would hope that no one on this forum is hated. Disagreements are at times difficult to avoid. But animosity, I would hope not; I would rather seen something built, than something torn down.
I enjoy your contributions, Joe. But with the 14 hours between here and Tokyo/Yokohama, I just can't figure out when you sleep..
wow, interesting thread, thx guys!!
there is so much misinformation out there on the internet, it's refreshing when people actually do some research.
reminds me of the "tenon" photographs lots of people were posting, that weren't a tenon at all!!
in any case, these old Tokai's are killer guitars...I have my '81 LS60, an R7 LP, a Heritage 150CM, plus a couple other Gibsons and a handmade '59 replica...the Tokai holds it's own!!
I'd like to raise a pint to Tokai
*swig*
there is so much misinformation out there on the internet, it's refreshing when people actually do some research.
reminds me of the "tenon" photographs lots of people were posting, that weren't a tenon at all!!
in any case, these old Tokai's are killer guitars...I have my '81 LS60, an R7 LP, a Heritage 150CM, plus a couple other Gibsons and a handmade '59 replica...the Tokai holds it's own!!
I'd like to raise a pint to Tokai
*swig*
villager
Well-known member
for the very last time....
the pics in the other post are of a solid top, I have shaved off the sides of the cavity to check, the line you see is not a laminate / veneer, it is, as ryan said, a photographic reflection of the rolled edge of the finish,
if you want to continue to believe it is a laminate then please do so, but its not, its solid..
as I said before and will say again, in my experience, there are less laminate tops from 79 and 80 becoming more commen in late 1980 and 1981,
I would love to see a 1979 or 1980 catalogue which states laminated tops for the 120's as does the 1981 catalogue which Joe has, but I think that it was only in 1981 that it became a feature in the catalogue and in production overall..
usually laminate tops are quite easy to spot as the centre seam does not match, bobwise, do you have a pic showing your laminate top and the cavity? as it would be interesting to see if the centre seam underneath the laminate is matched with the top, if that is indeed the case, then a laminate would be very difficult to spot, and indeed you need to shave the edge of the PU cavity to be sure, but of all the Tokai laminate tops I have seen, none of the maple caps have been centre seamed exactly as the join of the laminate, of course there may well have been some which matched up exactly and so I wouldnt have known, but until I see a pic of a laminate top with a centre seam exactly matching the maple cap underneath, I will doubt the existance of this particular detail in construction..
especially as with the 120 laminate tops I have seen there has been no effort to centralise the seam in the maple cap, its normally well off to one side or not even visable at all in the PU cavities..
the pics in the other post are of a solid top, I have shaved off the sides of the cavity to check, the line you see is not a laminate / veneer, it is, as ryan said, a photographic reflection of the rolled edge of the finish,
if you want to continue to believe it is a laminate then please do so, but its not, its solid..
as I said before and will say again, in my experience, there are less laminate tops from 79 and 80 becoming more commen in late 1980 and 1981,
I would love to see a 1979 or 1980 catalogue which states laminated tops for the 120's as does the 1981 catalogue which Joe has, but I think that it was only in 1981 that it became a feature in the catalogue and in production overall..
usually laminate tops are quite easy to spot as the centre seam does not match, bobwise, do you have a pic showing your laminate top and the cavity? as it would be interesting to see if the centre seam underneath the laminate is matched with the top, if that is indeed the case, then a laminate would be very difficult to spot, and indeed you need to shave the edge of the PU cavity to be sure, but of all the Tokai laminate tops I have seen, none of the maple caps have been centre seamed exactly as the join of the laminate, of course there may well have been some which matched up exactly and so I wouldnt have known, but until I see a pic of a laminate top with a centre seam exactly matching the maple cap underneath, I will doubt the existance of this particular detail in construction..
especially as with the 120 laminate tops I have seen there has been no effort to centralise the seam in the maple cap, its normally well off to one side or not even visable at all in the PU cavities..
Villager is making sense here:
What is the point in centre seaming the maple cap if you are using a laminate on top of it? Using a laminated top gives the freedom to use other sized pieces of maple for the cap so you can use up all your good pieces of maple! The good tone pieces, :lol:
Gibson used to sneak in off centre seams on some gold tops or maybe solid colour LPs (Black Beauties ?) back in the 50s.
What is the point in centre seaming the maple cap if you are using a laminate on top of it? Using a laminated top gives the freedom to use other sized pieces of maple for the cap so you can use up all your good pieces of maple! The good tone pieces, :lol:
Gibson used to sneak in off centre seams on some gold tops or maybe solid colour LPs (Black Beauties ?) back in the 50s.
MIJvintage
Well-known member
The four (new) Bacchus Universe Series BLS-600 models that I had thru' my hands all had, center seam 2 piece body, center seam 2 piece maple top, and 2 piece center seam flame and/or quilt veneer
quite amazing construction; the center seam on all three layers aligned perfectly on each & every guitar
typical obsessive/compulsive Bacchus attention to detail; even in the lower end product line 8) ................
I also had a 1980 Greco EGF-850 that had the maple top & the veneer aligned center seam to center seam
quite amazing construction; the center seam on all three layers aligned perfectly on each & every guitar
typical obsessive/compulsive Bacchus attention to detail; even in the lower end product line 8) ................
I also had a 1980 Greco EGF-850 that had the maple top & the veneer aligned center seam to center seam
villager
Well-known member
heres where I scraped the cavity... absolutely no sign of a laminate on this one...
look at the way the grain of the wood continues to the edge of the paint...
look at the way the grain of the wood continues to the edge of the paint...
villager said:heres where I scraped the cavity... absolutely no sign of a laminate on this one...
look at the way the grain of the wood continues to the edge of the paint...
8) sorry villager but i think i am clearly seeing something a layer
on the top........there seems absolutely a part between the mahogany
body wood and the top red coat? it just looks that veneer to me not??
this is serious........what u mean u dont see nothing here?
am i wrong or something? isnt this the veneer that we are talkin
about all times lately?????
8) j.
TOKAI JOE said:villager said:heres where I scraped the cavity... absolutely no sign of a laminate on this one...
look at the way the grain of the wood continues to the edge of the paint...
8) sorry villager but i think i am clearly seeing something a layer
on the top........there seems absolutely a part between the mahogany
body wood and the top red coat? it just looks that veneer to me not??
this is serious........what u mean u dont see nothing here?
am i wrong or something? isnt this the veneer that we are talkin
about all times lately?????
8) j.
villager
Well-known member
its not a veneer Joe, the veneer ones I have are very obviously a super straight line, all the way round the PU cavity, this does not have anything like a straight line, look at it, the line you see is not by any means similar to a veneer line, what you are looking at is a dark bit of woodgrain..
also look at the magnification of this photo, see the screw hole,.. thats a Pickup screw, so at this level a veneer would be very obvious, and its not..., because there isn't one.. also about your point of the woodgrain matching up.. you say you can see it match in 6 places!! and thats not enough!!!...it actually matches up all along the cavity, but you just cannot show this in one picture..
if you actually had an LS-120 to look at you could see this for yourself, a veneer line IS obvious when you look for it.. I make a point of looking for a veneer top on every guitar I get in, and so after a while its pretty easy to spot in real life. 1mm is quite a lot to the naked eye, and a veneer line is dead straight always, never irregular or otherwise..
photos will never show exactly the same as the eye can see, heh at least not with my camera...
there are a lot of veneer 120's and there are a lot of solid topped ones too, its impossible to say theres more of one than of the other, as nobody will ever get to see them all, so to try to work out the proportions is pointless..
now I think you are suffering from ''seeing what you want'' heh
I would like to see pics of bobwise's veneer top, to see if its a centre seam or not..that would be interesting if its centre seamed all the way through... come on bob ..show us the mustard!!
also look at the magnification of this photo, see the screw hole,.. thats a Pickup screw, so at this level a veneer would be very obvious, and its not..., because there isn't one.. also about your point of the woodgrain matching up.. you say you can see it match in 6 places!! and thats not enough!!!...it actually matches up all along the cavity, but you just cannot show this in one picture..
if you actually had an LS-120 to look at you could see this for yourself, a veneer line IS obvious when you look for it.. I make a point of looking for a veneer top on every guitar I get in, and so after a while its pretty easy to spot in real life. 1mm is quite a lot to the naked eye, and a veneer line is dead straight always, never irregular or otherwise..
photos will never show exactly the same as the eye can see, heh at least not with my camera...
there are a lot of veneer 120's and there are a lot of solid topped ones too, its impossible to say theres more of one than of the other, as nobody will ever get to see them all, so to try to work out the proportions is pointless..
now I think you are suffering from ''seeing what you want'' heh
I would like to see pics of bobwise's veneer top, to see if its a centre seam or not..that would be interesting if its centre seamed all the way through... come on bob ..show us the mustard!!
Oh hell, I'll bite. Why not. In the photo, the thin strip at the top looks like a different wood cut than the one below it. Even where there's no finish, it's got more of a yellow hue to it than the wood underneath. As for the line not being straight, if they pressed the top before cutting the pickup routes, isn't it possible you could get a bit of compression on the edge during routing that could make it look like this?
villager
Well-known member
cryptozoo said:Oh hell, I'll bite. Why not. In the photo, the thin strip at the top looks like a different wood cut than the one below it. Even where there's no finish, it's got more of a yellow hue to it than the wood underneath. As for the line not being straight, if they pressed the top before cutting the pickup routes, isn't it possible you could get a bit of compression on the edge during routing that could make it look like this?
its not a different wood, look carefully at the centre of the picture, see the graining at the very top?...same wood grain as below..
and no veneer line I have ever seen has looked like the imaginary line drawn there!! they are all dead straight,
the hole for the pickup screw is approx 2mm in real life, thats the magnification level here...
bobwise
Active member
Joe's hand-drawn line is less straight than the apparent glue line in the pic you provided. Lay a ruler across the pic (if you're looking at it on a flat screen monitor) -- the ruler runs right through the line. There's some "bleeding" of the glue above and below the line in places which makes it look "wavy".
The center seams on my veneer and the maple cap match perfectly.
As I said in the other thread, my camera can't get close up enough to show the veneer after I scraped the finish. Mine looks a lot like Villager's pic -- the glue line is invisible in some places, thin in others, a little thicker in other places. Whatever glue they used appears to soak into the wood a bit -- in some places it soaks in deeper than others.
But how about this pic of my guitar?
When I thought it was a solid top, I convinced myself that even though the lifting/buckling/wrinkling of the top near the end strap button looks like veneer de-laminating, it must have been some sort of water damage that made the solid maple cap swell, then change shape as it re-dried.
But now that I accept it's veneer, it's pretty obvious that the veneer has de-laminated a little. (In real life, up close with your eyes, it's even more obvious than in the pic.)
The center seams on my veneer and the maple cap match perfectly.
As I said in the other thread, my camera can't get close up enough to show the veneer after I scraped the finish. Mine looks a lot like Villager's pic -- the glue line is invisible in some places, thin in others, a little thicker in other places. Whatever glue they used appears to soak into the wood a bit -- in some places it soaks in deeper than others.
But how about this pic of my guitar?
When I thought it was a solid top, I convinced myself that even though the lifting/buckling/wrinkling of the top near the end strap button looks like veneer de-laminating, it must have been some sort of water damage that made the solid maple cap swell, then change shape as it re-dried.
But now that I accept it's veneer, it's pretty obvious that the veneer has de-laminated a little. (In real life, up close with your eyes, it's even more obvious than in the pic.)
bobwise
Active member
Where does "1mm" keep coming from? In the other thread we established that the veneer is well under 1mm in thickness. Mine is about .4mm -- the thickness of a typical business card.
Glue lines are distinct and obvious when there's a thick layer of glue. That's common when a veneer is applied -- because most veneers are thick and don't conform perfectly to the underlying wood. But look at the glue line where the two halves of a book-matched top meet -- the dark glue line is almost invisible. With a thin piece of veneer applied with high pressure, you should expect to see a glue line that's almost as indistinct as the glue line that joins the pieces of a solid cap.
Glue lines are distinct and obvious when there's a thick layer of glue. That's common when a veneer is applied -- because most veneers are thick and don't conform perfectly to the underlying wood. But look at the glue line where the two halves of a book-matched top meet -- the dark glue line is almost invisible. With a thin piece of veneer applied with high pressure, you should expect to see a glue line that's almost as indistinct as the glue line that joins the pieces of a solid cap.
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