Reborn old LS420 cs headstock question

[Guitar404]

Dear folks,

I have a question regarding the legitimacy of the following Tokai. The seller claims that it’s a 70th Anniversary custom shop special run (no certificate) LS420CS. It has a “Reborn old” logo and a strange headstock shape.
Scrolling the internet I’ve found the LS420s only with open book headstocks and Love Rock written down.
Could you kindly advise if it’s a real LS420CS.

Thanks a lot in advance

 

[Lumi71]

Hi,
those headstock shapes are made for some countries like uk for copy restricitions...
Has nothing to do with the model number.
Anyway photos dont give any proof for or against an LS420....Do I see fret nibs?
That could be a hint for an top/high end level model like LS420...
But really vague..
I would ask for more pics.
At least it should have a solid flame top (need pics of the pickup cavitiy to poof...
Maybe one piece body...
But even with this it is not safe its an LS420
Would strongly recommend only buying it with a pic of the certificate/warranty card which shows serial and model number,,,

 

[Guitar404]

Thanks for the reply. Requested more pics.
What are the indicators of LS420 (besides one-piece body and a decent top)? Does Reborn logo say something? How to identify a high-end 420 compared, let’s say, to some nice 186 or so
The seller has no certificate.

Here’s the seller’s description:
The top R-level Tokai, $2,500
The body is mahogany (one-piece)/ wavy maple AAAA
Neck - mahogany (deep glued) rosewood board
Frets - 22
Bridge - Tune-O -Matic Gotoh HLS-VB(Brass) Stop Bar Gotoh HLS-VT (Aluminum)
Pickups - Seymoure Duncan SH-55 Set(Seth Lover)
Adjustment - 2 Volume 2 Tone CTS Long Shaft
Switch - 3 - position SwitchCraft
Bamblebee N*O*S capacitor
Coating - nitrocellulose varnish
Color - cherry sunburst
The case is included

Last year I purchased an LC195exbb from the current seller w/o a certificate, beautiful one

 

[Lumi71]

Reborn old logos are also made for some countries- says nothing about he model. Its a "copy" of the old Reborn models in the 80s (just dfifferent logo).I dont know the exact specs of a LS420. But even if I would its not safe that it has these specs...
I would at least make sure its a solid top - you would need photos of the pickup cavities for this and see if the grain of the top runs trough the cavity..
As I said fret edge binding could be a factor as only the top level Tokais have them (but not all).
In the end it is a risk without a certificate. I would not take it...
here is another LS420..
https://reverb.com/de/item/4373390-tokai-ls-420-2016-honey-bursthttps://reverb.com/de/item/47166247-tokai-ls420-5a-custom-shop-cherry-2145611

 

[Guitar404]

Solid top confirmed, binding confirmed, electronics confirmed.

Thanks a lot! The 1st link you’ve sent confirms specks and a headstock shape.

The one I’m curious about costs 2.5k and a local pick up is available, it’s in my country.

Seems to be fine…

 

[Lumi71]

Do you have a pic of the cavities or did the seller say solid top?

 

[Guitar404]

If the top maple grade says something, here’re more pics (I’ve never been able to count an amount of “A”, but this one looks expensive)

 

[Guitar404]

Do you have a pic of the cavities or did the seller say solid top?

The seller said, and I informed that I’d check myself, as I’ll drive to pick it up personally. So no way to mislead.

 

[Sigmania]

These modern Reborn Old guitars were special orders. Usually for dealers.

This guitar is from a 2017 order.

See this thread:

"Reborn Old" Reborn

 

[Sigmania]

And I would not believe that model designation without proof. Lots of unknowns.

As Lumi suggested, first you need to make sure it’s not a laminate top.

And an LS420 may have a jacaranda board which could be an issue with importing it depending on where you live and circumstances.

 

[Guitar404]

The seller said, and I informed that I’d check myself, as I’ll drive to pick it up personally. So no way to

These modern Reborn Old guitars were special orders. Usually for dealers.

This guitar is from a 2017 order.

See this thread:

"Reborn Old" Reborn

Thanks.
Yes, I’d checked the thread with Reborn Old runs year-by-year, but no 2017 found.
The seller has an ls540 5A top with the serial 1737548 (this ls420 has 1737546) and claims he’s got them as a direct order through a dealer for Tokai 70th Anniversary.
I’m in Ukraine, the guitar is 150 km from Kyiv, the price is 2.5k. So no customs and the price looks down the market.

If I go and check the top, does this high grade top indicate a high-end model like 420?
No certificate.

 

[Lumi71]

if solid top it indicates a high end model.. but not neccessarily a ls420
Dont know exactly at which price point (model number) they started with a solid top..think around "Ls320"
Would be good to check a 2017 catalog for this.

 

[Guitar404]

if solid top it indicates a high end model.. but not neccessarily a ls420
Dont know exactly at which price point (model number) they started with a solid top..think around "Ls320"
Would be good to check a 2017 catalog for this.

Haven’t found the 2017 catalogue, but checked the 2018. The top guitar there is an ls320.
If it’s a special run, it may not be mentioned in a regular catalogue, right?

 

[Sigmania]

Thanks.
Yes, I’d checked the thread with Reborn Old runs year-by-year, but no 2017 found.
The seller has an ls540 5A top with the serial 1737548 (this ls420 has 1737546) and claims he’s got them as a direct order through a dealer for Tokai 70th Anniversary.
I’m in Ukraine, the guitar is 150 km from Kyiv, the price is 2.5k. So no customs and the price looks down the market.

If I go and check the top, does this high grade top indicate a high-end model like 420?
No certificate.

Man.... You are in Ukraine? Be safe! There is at least one other member on here in Poland and one other in Ukraine I beleive.

And 70th anniversary? That would be the founding of the company in 1947. Have never heard of a 70th anniversary model. I wonder who would have commissioned that? Maybe Tokai themselves?

 

[Sigmania]

Pics together

 

[Guitar404]

Man.... You are in Ukraine? Be safe! There is at least one other member on here in Poland and one other in Ukraine I beleive.

And 70th anniversary? That would be the founding of the company in 1947. Have never heard of a 70th anniversary model. I wonder who would have commissioned that? Maybe Tokai themselves?

Thank you so much! Everything’s gonna be fine. We believe.

Not a 70th Anniversary model, but a 70th Anniversary production run…who knows, the 2017 production matches the 70th anniversary of the company.

Would be interesting to know who’s in Ukraine The seller?)
There’re no other Tokais here in the country, never seen.

Thank you guys for fast and outstanding support

 

[Sigmania]

Here is the same guitar:

He is in Ukraine, looks like this guy has a store, and he is selling 6 Tokai guitars, he posted these two Strats and also 3 Tokai Les Pauls they are all "Old Reborn", and Tokai ES style, so that's why I was sure he had original guitars.
you can check some pictures below

 

[Guitar404]

Here is the same guitar:

Yesss, this seller. Great to find a local fellow here Thank you so much guys for all the mental and physical support. For your help with identifying guitars too, really helps.

So do you think something’s unfair?
I purchased a Tokai from him in 2022. It sounds amazing and looks fine…so I don’t know what to do, cause the ls420 is too expensive to get tricked and too desirable to skip.

Here’s my, probably, lc196exbb 2015, xtra thin poly finish (wood structure is visible and touchable like on my nitro Gibson). Ebony board, aluminum stop bar + brass ToM saddles, bone nut, binding, long-tennon, excellent build quality…if my custom is not fake, so the ls420 may be legit as well..

 

[Sigmania]

I think it is a legit guitar, I just don't know what the model is for sure.

With the Reborns the person placing the order in some cases named the model. Often unrelated to the price as you probably noticed in the thread on Reborns.

So I am not sure what it is called. There may be a model number stamped in the neck pickup cavity, or not. Worth looking.

Just verify that is is a solid top and pay accordingly. Whether it is a Brazilian board is difficult to tell and may not matter depending on the price.

 

[Guitar404]

I think it is a legit guitar, I just don't know what the model is for sure.

With the Reborns the person placing the order in some cases named the model. Often unrelated to the price as you probably noticed in the thread on Reborns.

So I am not sure what it is called. There may be a model number stamped in the neck pickup cavity, or not. Worth looking.

Just verify that is is a solid top and pay accordingly. Whether it is a Brazilian board is difficult to tell and may not matter depending on the price.

Of course, thanks.
This top looks like an expensive one with a lot of A (the seller cl “AAAA”). If it’s solid, I will consider it as one of a high-end guitars starting from 320 and further…
The price of 2.5k looks like a bargain. Cause I checked the reverb, and the 420s are sold at 3.3-4k…hope to get a luck with this one