Help me purchase my first Tokai!

[nimdawg]

Hello to everyone,

I'm new to the Tokai Forum but it looks like I found a good place with good people to help me with my next guitar purchase.
I was looking to buy a Gibson LP but stumbled upon this forum somehow and I have been searching through these forums for the past couple of weeks now. I played a Gibson LP Standard for about 4 months (a friends) and loved the tone and the neck - found the body to be too heavy and unbalanced (10 lbs + ) but the tone?
Anyway, played another two LP standards that were very disappointing and a LP Studio that was great.
Looking at the Tokai Forum I was impressed by peoples responses to the guitars and the fact that it looks like a worthy competitor to Gibson.

I want a LP that has a fat, warm (NOT muddy) tone where I can hear the definition of the individual strings and will cut through in a band (I play Rock, Alternative, Blues and a bit of Jazz). I need a LP that sounds and plays great and don't care about brand-names and historic accuracies.
I don't believe that the headstock has to say Gibson, but as I cannot audition a Tokai I need to know that if I decide to go with a Tokai it will be a safe bet. (Here in Israel not many know Tokai and I will have a problem selling it should the need arise)
I'm looking for a keeper! :wink:

I'm looking at the LS75 -125 range:

1. How many pieces of Maple does the top consist of (including the solid color LS75)?
2. I see in picture that the back is 3 piece Mahagony, are there any 2 piece backs?
3. What is the nut made of some? (Some say bone, others don't say)
4. I understand that the only differences between the LS75 ?LS90 is the finish ? is this true?
5. What do these guitars weigh? (Hopefully less than 9 lbs)
6. What are the stock pickups like?
7. Does the long neck tenon on the LS125 make a big tonal difference?
8. I see there is also a LS125SEB ? how does this compare to the other models?
9. Last (but not least), how would these compare the Gibson Studio, Standard, Historic models? (Owners of these ? please chip in!)

Sorry if I this mail is a bit long! The hunt for tone is long and tiresome.

Looking forward to reading your comments?

Nimrod
(Lost in the Holyland)

 

[togps]

nimdawg, hi and welcome to the forum.
Please feel free and have advantage of that great opportunity which offers the search button on this forum. There are 1000 of answers which will satisfied you 150% for sure. Don't hesitate ..

 

[nimdawg]

Thanks,

I have searched and I am still confused regarding the maple top. I am leaning towards a solid color and would like to know if the LS75 (LS85 on your website togps) is a 2 piece maple top. Do you think it is better to upgrade to the LS80 or 85 (LS90 or 95 respectively) or will the only change be cosmetic?

Nimrod

 

[togps]

Thanks,

I have searched and I am still confused regarding the maple top. I am leaning towards a solid color and would like to know if the LS75 (LS85 on your website togps) is a 2 piece maple top.

Nope. 3 -pcs. top/2-3 pcs. back (LS90 = 2-pcs. top/2-pcs. back)

Do you think it is better to upgrade to the LS80 or 85 (LS90 or 95 respectively) or will the only change be cosmetic?

Nimrod

Usually only cosmetic. Exceptions are possible.

 

[nimdawg]

I see the LS90 comes in Brown Sunburst - anyone have a picture of that?
Do you think it might be better to go for the LS125? More expensive the hardware seems better though I don't know if the laquer/hardware make a tonal difference?

 

[AlanN]

I think the accepted wisdom is that lacquer does not contribute one bit to tone. It's absolutely a consideration when it comes to the feel though - I find nitro coated necks much more comfortable than poly.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the accepted wisdom is that lacquer does not contribute one bit to tone.

I'm not sure about that. I don't think it makes as much difference as I once believed, but to say it makes no difference to tone.......hmmmm. :-? I'm still making up my mind - and enjoying the research!

Also, there are different polys - polyester, polyurathane, etc. They're not all the same, though we tend to lump them all in together. And thick poly can sort of box the sound in, in a way that thin poly doesn't.

But yeah, it's the feel of nitro that makes the difference for most of us. Though some people prefer the feel of poly, so there's no right and wrong here.

Mike

 

[Johnny-English]

There is a lovely Tokai LS75Q on ebay ?299 at the moment
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tokai-Love-Rock-LS75Q-made-in-Japan_W0QQitemZ290225820293QQihZ019QQcategoryZ112670QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[ganzua]

I think the accepted wisdom is that lacquer does not contribute one bit to tone.

I'm not sure about that.

neither me . I think popular wisdom points towards lacquer finish allows wood to breath, hence tone is better.

However, I don't know what scientific wisdom has to say about it :lol: and there is a dark tale about Fender covering the wood with nitro before the lacquer or something similar since the 50s era.

 

[AlanN]

It's when I think about it scientifically that I struggle to believe that anything with such a small mass versus the mass of the body is going to do anything for physical resonance...

How do you mean, breathe? I suppose aging is a factor I haven't thought about - if the wood ages better under a nitro coat then I can totally see when you're coming from.

 

[ganzua]

How do you mean, breathe? I suppose aging is a factor I haven't thought about - if the wood ages better under a nitro coat then I can totally see when you're coming from.

Hi!

If you do some googling you will find tons of lore on wood breathing :lol: It is a very old history. There are people that even remove the finish from non visible parts of the guitar; pick up pockets, under the bridge of teles...

BTW I'm not saying that I support this theory.

 

[Anonymous]

there is a dark tale about Fender covering the wood with nitro before the lacquer or something similar since the 50s era.

I think that you are referring to the practice of using a poly sealant coat under the nitro top coats on the US 57 & 62 re-issues. The 80s guitars were all nitro - proper copies of the 57 & 62 Strats. At some point, though I can't find out exactly when (90s?), Fender started to use a poly sealant coat to stop the finish sinking into the wood - the rest of the finish is all nitro.

Mind you, even in the 50s, Fender used various sealant coats, including one called Fullerplast. I have heard different explanations about what that was made from, though my understanding is that it wasn't any sort of poly sealant.

 

[ganzua]

I think that you are referring to the practice of using a poly sealant coat under the nitro top coats on the US 57 & 62 re-issues.

Hi again!

I'm not an expert in finishes but here we go-> this tale spreaded all over the internet;

Fenders Dirty Little Secret - The Plastic Coating of Guitars since 1963

Fact:
All Fender Guitars made since 1963 are Polyester coated. Lacquer is put on top of the poly to satisfy the general publics belief that Nitro Cellulose (nitro) Lacquer finished guitars "breathe", "dry" and generally have become the bottom line for creating great tome. I'm talking USA, Vintage collectable instruments that the general public has bought, traded, and sold for over 50 years. They came from the Fender factor with a hard plastic jacket underneath it. A suffocating wolf, masquerading under a cloak of Lacquer Fender later switched to 100% Poly and UltraViolet cured Resin on Squire, Mexican, Japanese, some USA and all other imports till this day.

Fact:
The two-part catalyzed coating named "Fullerplast" (Fuller for Fuller O'Brien, the products creator, and plast for the obvious PLASTIC"), solved all of Fenders finishing problems; encasing the deep wood pores in a self-hardening plastic that wrapped the body in a rock-hard solid coffin. In some cases we have found it to be as thick as a.060 string. Yes, all of the wood moisture and characteristics are sealed in a virtual time-capsule, only to be vented from the body through screw holes and paint fractures. Share this info and be the hit of your next guitar gathering!


Fact:
Fender rarely mentions Fullerplast, or the way it prepares its bodies before applying Lacquer. If they mention it at all
So, when someone tells you that a Fender "nitro-cellulose" or "nitro" finished guitar will sound better, have more warmth, or will dry out... they really don't have the full story.

Ask any seasoned guitar craftsman what happens when you will apply paint stripper to a Fender "nitro" finish.

The nitro color comes off within minutes, leaving the guitar with a rock-hard plastic coating that can not be removed with any chemical means. Sandpaper barely scratches this coating, but will remove it with mechanical help. Heat Guns will remove the coating, but not by softening it. Apply heat to the Fullerplast coating and it will remain solid until about 300F, at which time it will crack, and pop off of the guitar.

It's a fact, , its scientific, and it's the skeleton in Fenders closet, that they never want to be seen. They have kept it locked away like a ******* child, allowing players, collectors, and experts to spread the "nitro" legend as the holy-grail of tone!

When did Fender start the plastic coating process, and why?

Most experts agree that Fullerplast was started to be used by Fender in 1963
There are many experts that are willing to share the facts with the guitar community, just as I am.

The most time consuming part of finishing a solid guitar body, is the process of filling the wood pores, and allowing the paint to lay flay, with a gloss found on Grand Pianos, or automobiles. Fender needed a fast and easy solution in order speed up production during the guitar craze of the early 1960s. Encasing the wood in a smooth, hard, "glass" jacket would eliminate up to 20 hours in each body prep. Fender even experimented with a hot dip that resembled a candy apple method. The problem was that the dip mixture would need to be at a temperature that would damage the wood, or cause body moisture to create "steam pops" in the coating


When Fender switched to Alder (from Ash) as it's primary body wood in mid 1956, many books and authorities state Fender started using the product called "Fullerplast" This is a very misunderstood product. For example, there is a picture in Tom Wheeler's American Guitars, page 54 (upper left corner), of a man with long rubber gloves dipping bodies into a tank at Fender in the late 1950's. The description incorrectly denotes the man is applying Fullerplast to the bodies. Most likely, this man is staining the Alder bodies yellow, a process used on Alder from 1956 and later before spraying the sunburst finish. (2) Thanks to VintageGuitarHQ


Fullerplast is a clear, sprayed chemically curing sealer, unaffected by solvents after it dries. It's invention is often given credit to Fuller O'Brien (but often though to be named after the city of Fullerton, the home of Fender) Whether either is the case, it is now manufactured and distributed by VanDee,

Fullerplast soaks into the wood and creates a seal that prevents following coats from soaking into the wood like a sponge. This means spraying the color coats is easier and the coats can be applied thinner (saving material, money and dry time). Even though alder is a "closed pore" wood, the first few coats of lacquer will soak in like a sponge without some type of sealer coat. Fullerplast dries in 15 minutes, and is paintable in one hour. It is also applied very thin.
Most experts agree the actual product Fullerplast actually started to be used around 1963 at Fender. Prior to that, Fender used other products as their sealer coat, but they did the same thing. The sealer allowed any color coat (be it sunburst or a custom color) to not soak into the wood. Since the sealer is essentially a clear inexpensive primer, less color would be needed (and color costs a lot more money than a cheap sealer).

Another misconception about Fullerplast is it's color. The sealers Fender used including Fullerplast were clear, not yellow. The yellow seen in the unpainted portions of a 1956 and later Alder body is actually a stain or dye applied under the sealer coat. This was used to simplify the sunbursting process. The Alder bodies are dipped in a vat of yellow stain/dye. Next the Alder body is sealed with a very thin coat of clear sealer (i.e. "Fullerplast"). After drying, the sunburst procedure is continued by spraying the translucent red (starting in 1958) and dark blackish-brown on the edges of the body, which completes the sunburst look. Finally a clear coat is sprayed over the entire body to seal the colors. By dipping the alder bodies in a yellow stain first, instead of spraying yellow lacquer, there is one less step of lacquer to mix, spray, and dry. *

By fall 1964, Fender changed the yellow making it more whitish and opaque to better hide flaws in the wood. This allowed Fender to use cheaper Alder with more cosmetic flaws. The more whitish yellow was then sprayed over the sealer coat, as were the red and brown of the Sunburst. That is why the red and yellow now looks much different on late 1964 and later Fenders. This new whitish-yellow bleeds through the translucent red making it more orangish. Note that even though Fender was now spraying the yellow after the Fullerplast, they still continued to stain or dye the bodies yellow before the sealer coat.

Current use of Polyester and UV coatings on Fender Guitars.
Probably cause for another article is the case of Ultra Violet cured paints and sealers now used by most production guitar manufacturers. UV allows a very thick and durable coating to be applied directly over bare wood without any need for pore filling. UV cures the paint to its hardest state within minutes, not allowing the finish to soak into the wood.

If you have ever chipped an Ibanez guitar, you know what I mean.
Essentially, beneath every vintage Fender is an Ibanez coating in-waiting for you.


WIN A BET,BUT GET A PUNCH

The next time someone brags about how good their "lacquer" Fender guitar sounds, because it breathes, try this.

Take a cotton swab dipped nail polish remover, and take a wipe at an inconspicuous area on the guitar. Either
1) The finish will remain un-touched, or
2) You will wipe away the color coat, and see the rock-hard, insoluble Fullerplast. (sunburst guitar photo on left)

If all the finish comes off and you get to bare wood, the Fender guitar has been stripped and refinished.

Either way, you get to say you know something, before you hit the floor.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the article - very interesting. All I can say with any certainty is that my 1986 US62RI seems to be all nitro, with little if anything in the way of a sealant coat. Mind you, production in 86 was very small scale - the new Corona factory had just opened - and most 86 guitars were virtually hand made, or assembled from left over necks and bodies from the old Fullerton factory.

I got mine in 1991, and the finish was quite worn and battered even then. Little bits of the top coat of Candy Apple Red flaked off for years, and a year or so ago I got fed up with this and sanded off most of the flaking paint on the top bout (is that what it's called?) and the bottom edge.

Sacriledge? Maybe, but I hope I'll own this till the day I die, so sale value isn't an issue for me. I like the look of it - it looks more like a real 62 than most real ones I've seen! And now I've removed all the loose flaking paint, it seems to have stabilised it - no more flakes of paint on the carpet.

If you want to be critical, you could say that the finish can't have been applied properly if it was so worn after just five years. But the first owner seems to have treated the poor little masterpiece quite harshly, so who knows what he did to it?

Anyway the point is that it seems to have one or maybe two coats of gold undercoat, then the top coat, and that's all. I'm almost certain that there is nothing underneath the gold undercoat. I guess there must be a top coat of lacquer over the paint, but it must be very thin. Or maybe they forgot it?

This is what it looked like a few years ago.

The paint that I removed had no real gloss, and had a sort or orange peel look to it in one place. Maybe it was a one-off slightly defective finish? Surprising if it was, as they only had a few staff in 86, and I understood it was only the top people, many of whom went on to set up the Custom Shop.

Anyway, make of that what you will. Maybe it's typical, maybe not. In this particular case, I'm just glad they made such a gorgeous instrument.

8)

 

[AlanN]

I love it. It looks played, owned and loved which is what every guitar dreams of.

 

[Anonymous]

Definitely loved. Semi-retired now - my ST80 has been helping to make that less of a problem. :wink: