Greco SE 600: how to identify if the body and pickups are original?

[sphinks]

Hi everyone!
I hope to find some help from people much more educated in vintage japan guitars. I have found the ad for selling a loaded strat body. The seller told me everything is original: body, pickups, wiring, pots... and that belongs to Greco SE 600 1977 (neck plate is also included). Could somebody help to identify if that is true? I really confused by the fact there are no signs on pickups back. As for me, wiring looks pretty something that I have seen on Japan guitars from that era.

And another question is whether it could be Sparkling or Super Sound? As far as I understand that is just two different names belonging to a different era of Greco production. What is the difference in quality if there is any?

 

[Voidoid56]

Really bad pics, but from what I can tell, there's nothing obviously out of whack for a '77 SE-600. The body routs are correct for the time and model. I would expect the pickups to be marked "Excel" and/or possibly "31276" (probably some parts number) as well, but it can be a bit hard to see even in good pics. However, the grey coaxial cables are correct as well and what I can see of pots and switch look legit as well. You can just make out a rubber-stamped number series between the neck and middle pickups, that's a date stamp and also a typical Greco feature.
So far, so good, but you really should ask for better pics. Any idea what the neck-plate serial is?
The SE-600 was "Sparkle Sounds" in 1977-78, the SE-700 "Early Sixties", all other models either "Super Sounds" or "Super Sound". Model-specific names for the whole range didn't come in until1980.
So, models names are inconsistent and change over time, the model numbers are a much better way to tell the price levels apart.

 

[sphinks]

Really bad pics, but from what I can tell, there's nothing obviously out of whack for a '77 SE-600. The body routs are correct for the time and model. I would expect the pickups to be marked "Excel" and/or possibly "31276" (probably some parts number) as well, but it can be a bit hard to see even in good pics. However, the grey coaxial cables are correct as well and what I can see of pots and switch look legit as well. You can just make out a rubber-stamped number series between the neck and middle pickups, that's a date stamp and also a typical Greco feature.
So far, so good, but you really should ask for better pics. Any idea what the neck-plate serial is?
The SE-600 was "Sparkle Sounds" in 1977-78, the SE-700 "Early Sixties", all other models either "Super Sounds" or "Super Sound". Model-specific names for the whole range didn't come in until1980.
So, models names are inconsistent and change over time, the model numbers are a much better way to tell the price levels apart.

Thank you very much for that information. The neck plate number according to the seller is K772537. According to the seller, there were some stickers on pickups but they fall apart and that looks dangerous to me. I did not see any stickers on pickups from that era of Japan guitars.

 

[Voidoid56]

Thank you very much for that information. The neck plate number according to the seller is K772537. According to the seller, there were some stickers on pickups but they fall apart and that looks dangerous to me. I did not see any stickers on pickups from that era of Japan guitars.

People put labels on pickups all the time, to mark the positions or sometimes to record the resistance value, but you're right, stock stickers on MIJ pickups is rare. You see them on some 1980s Greco humbuckers (rectangular black and gold, imitating Gibson's PAF and Pat No stickers), but not really on singles. The markings I'm talking about here are embossed into the flatwork, and if they're present, should be visible in a close up. But like I said, the kosher-looking cables are a good sign, Maxon (pickup supplier to Greco and Kasuga brands) were more or less alone in using a single coaxial cable instead of separate hot and ground. Most replacements have separate leads as well, since it's Fender's own standard. .

K77 is Nov 1977, which means that it's likely an early-production 1978 model (next year's range was launched in late autumn). In the case of the SE-600 at this time, I don't think it matters, the model seems to have been the same both years. I would expect the date stamped on the pickguard to be either Oct or Nov 1977.

Pic of a July 1979 SE-600. At that time, pickups were often stamped both with the Excel logo and 31276, but I would expect yours to have just the logo. Pickups later than 1979 just have the number. I've yet to see any obviously original pups with no markings at all in a Greco SE from this period... but of course, there's always a first time.

Note the date stamp. The format is XYMMDD, so this one's June 26th 1979. The first digit is some internal factory info, possibly to indicate which production line made it, or something similar. 2 is the most common, but you see 1, 3, 5 and 8 as well.

 

[sphinks]

Wow, thanks for such a deep introduction to Greco things! That is really helpful!

 

[Nowherez]

People put labels on pickups all the time, to mark the positions or sometimes to record the resistance value, but you're right, stock stickers on MIJ pickups is rare. You see them on some 1980s Greco humbuckers (rectangular black and gold, imitating Gibson's PAF and Pat No stickers), but not really on singles. The markings I'm talking about here are embossed into the flatwork, and if they're present, should be visible in a close up. But like I said, the kosher-looking cables are a good sign, Maxon (pickup supplier to Greco and Kasuga brands) were more or less alone in using a single coaxial cable instead of separate hot and ground. Most replacements have separate leads as well, since it's Fender's own standard. .

K77 is Nov 1977, which means that it's likely an early-production 1978 model (next year's range was launched in late autumn). In the case of the SE-600 at this time, I don't think it matters, the model seems to have been the same both years. I would expect the date stamped on the pickguard to be either Oct or Nov 1977.

Pic of a July 1979 SE-600. At that time, pickups were often stamped both with the Excel logo and 31276, but I would expect yours to have just the logo. Pickups later than 1979 just have the number. I've yet to see any obviously original pups with no markings at all in a Greco SE from this period... but of course, there's always a first time.

Note the date stamp. The format is XYMMDD, so this one's June 26th 1979. The first digit is some internal factory info, possibly to indicate which production line made it, or something similar. 2 is the most common, but you see 1, 3, 5 and 8 as well.

View attachment 3969

Thanks for excellent info on these Grecos!
I just bought one (not yet shipped): a gorgeous 1-piece ash/sen body SE-800N - serial A773522 (January '77?). Headstock has no information, so it is either a special order or logo was removed before being "burnt in" and headstock then re-finished..

I was checking up the catalogue for 1977 and confusingly the stock PU in the - that year - top model SE-800 were pu-100. I was under the impression that the pu-119 were the top-of-the-line PUs at the end of the '70s, but according to catalogue the pu-119 were in the cheaper SE-700 models.. Confusing. A typo?
I thought the pu-119 were the Excels (that I've played on several occasions and absolutely love), but in some online threads the pu-100 is also described as "Excel" so maybe I just got this wrong? Maybe you could set me straight, haha?

I have yet to see the PUs as pick guard was not removed for the pictures, but all hardware looks correct.. this guitar has the MH-803 tuners (I am guessing Gotoh).

Will post an update pick here once the axe arrives at my door

 

[Nowherez]

People put labels on pickups all the time, to mark the positions or sometimes to record the resistance value, but you're right, stock stickers on MIJ pickups is rare. You see them on some 1980s Greco humbuckers (rectangular black and gold, imitating Gibson's PAF and Pat No stickers), but not really on singles. The markings I'm talking about here are embossed into the flatwork, and if they're present, should be visible in a close up. But like I said, the kosher-looking cables are a good sign, Maxon (pickup supplier to Greco and Kasuga brands) were more or less alone in using a single coaxial cable instead of separate hot and ground. Most replacements have separate leads as well, since it's Fender's own standard. .

K77 is Nov 1977, which means that it's likely an early-production 1978 model (next year's range was launched in late autumn). In the case of the SE-600 at this time, I don't think it matters, the model seems to have been the same both years. I would expect the date stamped on the pickguard to be either Oct or Nov 1977.

Pic of a July 1979 SE-600. At that time, pickups were often stamped both with the Excel logo and 31276, but I would expect yours to have just the logo. Pickups later than 1979 just have the number. I've yet to see any obviously original pups with no markings at all in a Greco SE from this period... but of course, there's always a first time.

Note the date stamp. The format is XYMMDD, so this one's June 26th 1979. The first digit is some internal factory info, possibly to indicate which production line made it, or something similar. 2 is the most common, but you see 1, 3, 5 and 8 as well.

View attachment 3969

BTW if PU-100/PU-119 refer to string spacing, does that mean I'd have to file down the sides of the saddles I am planning to install (- ..original rolled steel Fender saddles)?

 

[Voidoid56]

Basically, Greco Strat PU designations are... confusing. And they change over time.

They have no designation at all to begin with. The the PU-100 designation turns up in 1976, for all strat copies, which (as far as I've been able to tell) all have the narrower string pitch that year.

In 1977, the SE-700 turns up, with PU-119 pickups and the wider string pitch with 11,2 mm bridge saddles. But weirdly, the SE-800 of that year have the pups specced as PU-100s despite having the wider bridge saddles. I've never had an SE-800'older than 1979 personally, but as far as I can tell from photos, they appear to have the standard pole piece pitch (57 mm from outside to outside of the two e-string poles, as opposed to 55 mm for the narrower ones). This appears to be the same in 1978.

In 1979, **** happens. The -800, -700 and -600 all have pickups specced as PU-119, while the -500 finally gets the Fender-standard string pitch and bridge saddle width... with the pickups designated PU-100W, which we assume to stand for "Wide". The PU-100 designation gets transferred to the low-end ceramics used in SE-450s and the (then new) SE-380, pickups that doesn't seem to have had any catalog designation at all prior to that.

And... in 1980, the designations change again, with SE-800, -700 and -600 pickups being designated PU-S8, while the ones in in SE-500 and -450 (which is an all-new 1972-76 copy at that point) are specced with PU-S5's. The SE-380 retains the ceramics designated PU-100 which are in no way related to the original PU-100s of 1976...

So, welcome to Japan.

As for the "Maxon Excel" name, it interesting to note that Greco never ever used the Excel name in any official documentation. It's embossed into the flatwork of the pickups from around 1975-76 and remains so up to around 1978-79, when the number 31276 appears, first together with Excel, and the superceding it. By 1980 it's gone completely, with only 31276 remaining

I would assume that this has something to fo with Maxon selling off their pickup operation to Fujigen, incl machinery and apparently some staff, to concentrate on effect pedal manufacture (Tube Screamers and more for Ibanez etc). But the timing of this is a bit uncertain, 1979-81 being mentioned. It's possible that Excel was a Maxon trade name not included in the sale. But over time, the whole family of Maxon alnico Strat pups have become known as "Excels".

Personally, I find the various versons hard to tell apart, tbh. They're basically all great strat pickups, with a common and imo, a nice, very versatile tone. The outlier is the the variant of the PU-S5 found in early 1980 SE-500s, which for some reason are overwound to around 7.5 kOhm, i e well into P90 country. I've no idea why, there's no separate designation for it or anything. That pickup model was introduced in 1980, it's possible that that was the original spec for it, but it was found to be hotter than the market liked. By mid-1980 they're down to
a more normal 6,5k.

I told you it was confusing, right?

But I do believe standard Fender 11,2 mm bridge saddles will fit your guitar with no ptoblems.

 

[Nowherez]

Basically, Greco Strat PU designations are... confusing. And they change over time.

They have no designation at all to begin with. The the PU-100 designation turns up in 1976, for all strat copies, which (as far as I've been able to tell) all have the narrower string pitch that year.

In 1977, the SE-700 turns up, with PU-119 pickups and the wider string pitch with 11,2 mm bridge saddles. But weirdly, the SE-800 of that year have the pups specced as PU-100s despite having the wider bridge saddles. I've never had an SE-800'older than 1979 personally, but as far as I can tell from photos, they appear to have the standard pole piece pitch (57 mm from outside to outside of the two e-string poles, as opposed to 55 mm for the narrower ones). This appears to be the same in 1978.

In 1979, **** happens. The -800, -700 and -600 all have pickups specced as PU-119, while the -500 finally gets the Fender-standard string pitch and bridge saddle width... with the pickups designated PU-100W, which we assume to stand for "Wide". The PU-100 designation gets transferred to the low-end ceramics used in SE-450s and the (then new) SE-380, pickups that doesn't seem to have had any catalog designation at all prior to that.

And... in 1980, the designations change again, with SE-800, -700 and -600 pickups being designated PU-S8, while the ones in in SE-500 and -450 (which is an all-new 1972-76 copy at that point) are specced with PU-S5's. The SE-380 retains the ceramics designated PU-100 which are in no way related to the original PU-100s of 1976...

So, welcome to Japan.

As for the "Maxon Excel" name, it interesting to note that Greco never ever used the Excel name in any official documentation. It's embossed into the flatwork of the pickups from around 1975-76 and remains so up to around 1978-79, when the number 31276 appears, first together with Excel, and the superceding it. By 1980 it's gone completely, with only 31276 remaining

I would assume that this has something to fo with Maxon selling off their pickup operation to Fujigen, incl machinery and apparently some staff, to concentrate on effect pedal manufacture (Tube Screamers and more for Ibanez etc). But the timing of this is a bit uncertain, 1979-81 being mentioned. It's possible that Excel was a Maxon trade name not included in the sale. But over time, the whole family of Maxon alnico Strat pups have become known as "Excels".

Personally, I find the various versons hard to tell apart, tbh. They're basically all great strat pickups, with a common and imo, a nice, very versatile tone. The outlier is the the variant of the PU-S5 found in early 1980 SE-500s, which for some reason are overwound to around 7.5 kOhm, i e well into P90 country. I've no idea why, there's no separate designation for it or anything. That pickup model was introduced in 1980, it's possible that that was the original spec for it, but it was found to be hotter than the market liked. By mid-1980 they're down to
a more normal 6,5k.

I told you it was confusing, right?

But I do believe standard Fender 11,2 mm bridge saddles will fit your guitar with no ptoblems.

WoW! Thanks.. super useful information.. Much appreciated!!
... looking forward to receiving this axe! I used to own a Greco SE500 with Excels (I think maybe they were maybe installed later?) Anyway excellent sounding and I regretfully sold it along with a Tokai to finance another guitar..

((As of lately I own basically only Japanese guitars (mostly late 70s to mid 80s), notably from Moon, ESP, a PGM/Harayama made no-name, Fender (A-serial), a Blade Levinson, Fernandes, but no Greco - and ironically: no Tokai (on my bucketlist). Nice to find a forum with this level of detailed knowledge!!))

 

[Nowherez]

Basically, Greco Strat PU designations are... confusing. And they change over time.

They have no designation at all to begin with. The the PU-100 designation turns up in 1976, for all strat copies, which (as far as I've been able to tell) all have the narrower string pitch that year.

In 1977, the SE-700 turns up, with PU-119 pickups and the wider string pitch with 11,2 mm bridge saddles. But weirdly, the SE-800 of that year have the pups specced as PU-100s despite having the wider bridge saddles. I've never had an SE-800'older than 1979 personally, but as far as I can tell from photos, they appear to have the standard pole piece pitch (57 mm from outside to outside of the two e-string poles, as opposed to 55 mm for the narrower ones). This appears to be the same in 1978.

In 1979, **** happens. The -800, -700 and -600 all have pickups specced as PU-119, while the -500 finally gets the Fender-standard string pitch and bridge saddle width... with the pickups designated PU-100W, which we assume to stand for "Wide". The PU-100 designation gets transferred to the low-end ceramics used in SE-450s and the (then new) SE-380, pickups that doesn't seem to have had any catalog designation at all prior to that.

And... in 1980, the designations change again, with SE-800, -700 and -600 pickups being designated PU-S8, while the ones in in SE-500 and -450 (which is an all-new 1972-76 copy at that point) are specced with PU-S5's. The SE-380 retains the ceramics designated PU-100 which are in no way related to the original PU-100s of 1976...

So, welcome to Japan.

As for the "Maxon Excel" name, it interesting to note that Greco never ever used the Excel name in any official documentation. It's embossed into the flatwork of the pickups from around 1975-76 and remains so up to around 1978-79, when the number 31276 appears, first together with Excel, and the superceding it. By 1980 it's gone completely, with only 31276 remaining

I would assume that this has something to fo with Maxon selling off their pickup operation to Fujigen, incl machinery and apparently some staff, to concentrate on effect pedal manufacture (Tube Screamers and more for Ibanez etc). But the timing of this is a bit uncertain, 1979-81 being mentioned. It's possible that Excel was a Maxon trade name not included in the sale. But over time, the whole family of Maxon alnico Strat pups have become known as "Excels".

Personally, I find the various versons hard to tell apart, tbh. They're basically all great strat pickups, with a common and imo, a nice, very versatile tone. The outlier is the the variant of the PU-S5 found in early 1980 SE-500s, which for some reason are overwound to around 7.5 kOhm, i e well into P90 country. I've no idea why, there's no separate designation for it or anything. That pickup model was introduced in 1980, it's possible that that was the original spec for it, but it was found to be hotter than the market liked. By mid-1980 they're down to
a more normal 6,5k.

I told you it was confusing, right?

But I do believe standard Fender 11,2 mm bridge saddles will fit your guitar with no ptoblems.

I opted for slow shipping (which actually wasn’t that bad ) and it arrived today. I’ve tinkered with it, changed saddles, polished the frets, set it up and intonated it.. Pickups were indeed Excels (stamped both “31276” and “excel”), string separation at the bridge were standard vintage Fender spec, so my Fender steel saddles slipped in without issues. I put a beer on chill in the freezer and went upstairs to plug and play..

My doG! It sounds and plays a m a z i n g.. I’m stunned! A quick sound inspection turned into a 3 hr session. I’ve got blisters on my fingers, my beer exploded in the freezer but I can’t stop smiling. Shout outs to the fantastic Japanese luthiers who built such excellent instruments back then (and still do).

Thanks again for the detailed info you provided! Much appreciated!!

 

[Cameage]

Really bad pics, but from what I can tell, there's nothing obviously out of whack for a '77 SE-600. The body routs are correct for the time and model. I would expect the pickups to be marked "Excel" and/or possibly "31276" (probably some parts number) as well, but it can be a bit hard to see even in good pics. However, the grey coaxial cables are correct as well and what I can see of pots and switch look legit as well. You can just make out a rubber-stamped number series between the neck and middle pickups, that's a date stamp and also a typical Greco feature.
So far, so good, but you really should ask for better pics. Any idea what the neck-plate serial is?
The SE-600 was "Sparkle Sounds" in 1977-78, the SE-700 "Early Sixties", all other models either "Super Sounds" or "Super Sound". Model-specific names for the whole range didn't come in until1980.
So, models names are inconsistent and change over time, the model numbers are a much better way to tell the price levels apart.

Would you happen to know what differentiated the se500, 600, and 800 from 1980 to 82? Looking at old forum posts and whatnot, I've seen how many pieces the body was, where the pieces were joined, the 500 had body truss rod adjustment, and the 800 was always (and the 600 was sometimes) nitro finished. Also, I guess the pickups were supposed to be different, though that seems like it wasn't consistent.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Voidoid56]

Sorry, late reply, but here goes...

1980 SE-500s and -600s were really quite similar (which 50k and 60k yen models often are generally). Both were nominally pre-CBS copies with small headstocks at that point, either 1954-'56-style maple necks (though they do turn up in 3TS finish as well) or '59-'62 with rosewood slab fretboards, only with pre-1959 single-ply 8-screw pickguards - go figure. Both models had identical tuners and bridge. The number of wood pieces and seam placement are not very consistent in my experience. Quite a few earlier natural-finish SE600s turn up with nicely figured one-piece sen bodies, but I think that had ended by 1980. I've heard rumours of nitro 600s as well, but I've no first-hand knowledge.

The SE-800 Super Real had nitro finish and a fairly pronounced soft-V neck profiles. 1954 appointments seem to be the most common by far for that model, though you do se the odd 59ish copy. 500s and 600s normally had a U profile, though at least some 500s had a slight V shape as well, especially close to the headstock. All three models had the pre-1972 neck butt truss adjustment nut, the 1980-82 SE-450 and -700 were 1972-'76 copies with bullet truss nut on the headstock, three neck screws and microtilt.

The SE500 was specced with PU-S5 pickups, while the -600 and -800 had PU-S8s. I've had a couple of SE-500 from the first few months of 1980 with pickups overwound to around 7.5k. It's concievable that this was the original spec for that pickup, but by mid-1980 they seem to be down to a more normal 6.5k or so. Maybe the market didn't like them hot? After that, I've never really been able to tell any tangible and consistent difference between the two models.

Otherwise, the number of deviations from the catalog standards seem to be endless, due to short-run store originals and customer-ordered instruments. Also, for Fender copies made between late 1981 and April 1982, there simply aren't any catalog standards, due to Greco's/Kanda Shokai's/Fujigen's impending involvement with Fender Japan and their absence from the 1982 catalogs. That period turns up any number of odd-spec SE models. The fun just never stops.