ageing

[zee824]

hi just wanted to know if my tokai love rock will age like the 59 guitars as in will it lose the colour around the edges (love the unburst look) and is there any way i can speed up the process?
thanks
zee

 

[jacco]

Yes, it will if it's nitro finish.
You can speed up the process by putting it in the direct sunlight or a UV lamp. Be cautious though & ask here on how to do it before you start or you can end up with a non reversable situation

 

[nuttstreet]

I had a friend that used to freeze-flash thaw his Gibson LP's and F Strats (repeat until desired effect is achieved). He claimed that slowly the finish would craze like an old LP that was drug from club to club in a freezing car trunk in the Chicaga winter. He swore it worked but needed many repeats.

 

[JVsearch]

I had a friend that used to freeze-flash thaw his Gibson LP's and F Strats (repeat until desired effect is achieved). He claimed that slowly the finish would craze like an old LP that was drug from club to club in a freezing car trunk in the Chicaga winter. He swore it worked but needed many repeats.

By all accounts, that does actually work - gets that crazing in the clear coat.
I havent tried it myself because I've only ever owned a combined fridge freezer (freezer is too small). :lol:

 

[AlanN]

You have to strip off all other hardware of course, but how do the frets get on with such treatment? All that heating and shrinking, I'd be worried that it'd loosen them...

 

[marcusnieman]

but how do the frets get on with such treatment? All that heating and shrinking, I'd be worried that it'd loosen them...

And the fretboard inlays

 

[AlanN]

Yeah, they're not as susceptible to shrinking/expanding as metal though.

 

[nuttstreet]

Just ask Chuck.
Berry, of course!
He threw his rir in the trunk of his Coupe DeVille and drove it to every gig. Frozen in the trunk to in front of the spotlight. Repeat evry night for 200 consecutive nights.
We may be over thinking. I remember traveling to Michigan weather gigs at 10* and humping it frozen up 2 flights of stairs to an 80* club. It never seemed to hurt the frets or hardware.
My fearless friend never even loosens the strings when he pitches his real LP's into his freezer.

 

[zee824]

Thanks for all the relpys
So which would be the easier way uv treatment or the freezer treatment.
At the moment I'm not even sure I'm gonna do it or even able to (doest the mij love rock have nitro fin?) and I don't know if I have the heart to do it to my favourite guitar. Thanks for any help
Zee

 

[marcusnieman]

Thanks for all the relpys
So which would be the easier way uv treatment or the freezer treatment.
At the moment I'm not even sure I'm gonna do it or even able to (doest the mij love rock have nitro fin?) and I don't know if I have the heart to do it to my favourite guitar. Thanks for any help
Zee

Whatever you do, proceed with caution. Nothing like the feeling of wrecking a good guitar when you didn't have to.

 

[Anonymous]

Just ask Chuck.
Berry, of course!
He threw his rir in the trunk of his Coupe DeVille and drove it to every gig. Frozen in the trunk to in front of the spotlight. Repeat evry night for 200 consecutive nights.

Nonsense! Chuck's guitars never stick around long enough to age! He checks his guitar as baggage on planes and simply buys a new one every year or two - they're tax-deductible you know.

:wink:

I'm surprised that not one of you has bothered to ask the OP which model his Love Rock is - surely that matters?

Even if it's a "nitro finished" model, it will be a thin layer of nitro on top of a poly base coat - nothing like a "real '59". So the chances of it ageing just the same are pretty slim, however much you roast it or freeze it!

Mike

 

[AlanN]

Even if it's a "nitro finished" model, it will be a thin layer of nitro on top of a poly base coat

Bit misleading, Mike. If it is "nitro finished" in the sense of modern Tokais then yes, but there are plenty of Tokai LP copies which are full nitro with no poly undercoat.

 

[Anonymous]

Even if it's a "nitro finished" model, it will be a thin layer of nitro on top of a poly base coat

Bit misleading, Mike. If it is "nitro finished" in the sense of modern Tokais then yes, but there are plenty of Tokai LP copies which are full nitro with no poly undercoat.

Are there? And how do I identify these? When did the poly undercoat begin?

 

[AlanN]

Pre-1982 LS80 and above, post 82 LS150 and above; in recent times, the high end Love Rocks are all nitro. The nitro over poly thing is a fairly recent addition if I recall correctly, but I don't know exactly when, sorry. 90s?


Edit: probably later than that actually. Some modern Toks have "All lacquer" stickers (as opposed to their "Lacquer Finish" stickers) which are as they suggest too.


Edit: here you go, a good example.


LS250 - "Finish: Lacquer Finish"
http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=73&category_id=14&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

LS370 - "Finish: All Lacquer"
http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=73&category_id=14&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

 

[JVsearch]

Pre-1982 LS80 and above, post 82 LS150 and above; in recent times, the high end Love Rocks are all nitro. The nitro over poly thing is a fairly recent addition if I recall correctly, but I don't know exactly when, sorry. 90s?

Is that definitely known for a fact? I mean, Fender have been doing it since the 60s and they're one of the major, er, um, influences on Tokai.

It stands to reason that if there's an ST-80 proven to have a full nitro finish (think someone on here did a test?) then the LS-80 probably has the same type of finish.

But has anyone burned the finish all the way down to the wood with acetone, not just got a bit of a reaction on the top coat and left it at that? (can't blame a person for leaving it at that! :lol: )

It's actually extremely expensive to do a pure nitro finish these days; one guy I encountered said it would add $500 to the cost of the guitar, but that was a single job of an unusual nature. Historic Makeovers specialise in nitro re-finishing and charge about $1000 USD for redoing a top on a Les Paul. With this in mind, I think it's safer to assume that almost all the modern stuff is nitro over poly or poly, unless it is specifically stated to be full nitro, or the guitar is pretty expensive.

Back to the OP - you only want to fade it right? So forget about freezers and just let it get a bit of sun on the body, not the neck (Jacco has proven that they will fade). Leaving the pick guard on is up to you.

 

[jacco]

Pre-1982 LS80 and above, post 82 LS150 and above; in recent times, the high end Love Rocks are all nitro. The nitro over poly thing is a fairly recent addition if I recall correctly, but I don't know exactly when, sorry. 90s?

Is that definitely known for a fact? I mean, Fender have been doing it since the 60s and they're one of the major, er, um, influences on Tokai.

It stands to reason that if there's an ST-80 proven to have a full nitro finish (think someone on here did a test?) then the LS-80 probably has the same type of finish.

But has anyone burned the finish all the way down to the wood with acetone, not just got a bit of a reaction on the top coat and left it at that? (can't blame a person for leaving it at that! :lol: )

It's actually extremely expensive to do a pure nitro finish these days; one guy I encountered said it would add $500 to the cost of the guitar, but that was a single job of an unusual nature. Historic Makeovers specialise in nitro re-finishing and charge about $1000 USD for redoing a top on a Les Paul. With this in mind, I think it's safer to assume that almost all the modern stuff is nitro over poly or poly, unless it is specifically stated to be full nitro, or the guitar is pretty expensive.

Back to the OP - you only want to fade it right? So forget about freezers and just let it get a bit of sun on the body, not the neck (Jacco has proven that they will fade). Leaving the pick guard on is up to you.

Yep, I acetoned the hell out of my 1979 LS80 and in the end there was only wood left

Full refinish in nitro of a LP is about 300 euro here in Holland.

 

[Paladin2019]

Even if it's a "nitro finished" model, it will be a thin layer of nitro on top of a poly base coat - nothing like a "real '59". So the chances of it ageing just the same are pretty slim, however much you roast it or freeze it!

Mike

I've talked about mine with a couple of techs over the years and consensus seems to be that the poly base coat is extremely thin; poly isn't absorbed by the wood but nitro is, so a layer of poly is used as a base in order to bypass those first few 'wasteful' applications of nitro that would otherwise be sucked up into the wood. It's not a marketing scam, it's just clever economising.

How this method affects artifical ageing is another matter, but it's definately the nitro that makes up the bulk of these finishes.

 

[AlanN]

It's actually extremely expensive to do a pure nitro finish these days

Yup, "these days" is right - which is why they introduced the lacquer over poly finish at some point. The early instruments which weren't poly were all nitro, and the upper range (read: extremely expensive ) modern tokais as I linked are all nitro still.

 

[JVsearch]

It's actually extremely expensive to do a pure nitro finish these days

Yup, "these days" is right - which is why they introduced the lacquer over poly finish at some point. The early instruments which weren't poly were all nitro, and the upper range (read: extremely expensive ) modern tokais as I linked are all nitro still.

Yeah, first Tokai LP with full nitro finish comes in at 370k, which is close to $5000 in my money, which is a lot of dough!

The problem with nitro being expensive is apparently a time issue - there's days of drying in between certain coats, and you have to use more coats (see Paladin's post above), albeit thinner ones, so it takes ages in the paint shop.

 

[jacco]

My point was that when you look at just 1 guitar it isn't that expensive to do a nitro finish if a refin is around 300 euros which includes getting rid of the original finish..

For Tokai Gakki what it will cost extra is:
-difference in material cost between a poly and nitro finish
-difference in time it takes to do a poly or a nitro finish & hourly wages of the guy that does the finish

Can't be that much..