Tokai vs Yamaha

[Diamond]

The PRS distributor in SAfrica (for 13 years, not any more) has owned his dream #1 PRS Hollowbody for 13 years...his wife tells me it's "his baby", he'll never sell it.
If you want one of these in SAfrica be prepared to pay R70,000 (($9,000).
http://www.prsguitars.com/hollowbody/index.php

One week after buying his Tokai ES185 he sold the PRS...

 

[luis]

I?m sorry but I disagree, MKII while good pickups, are inferior to boutique pickups as Wolfetone,Haussels,W&B and Rolphs. I prefer Seth Lovers over MKII also.It?s my own experience in a LS-180CTM Tokai.

I prefer MKIIs over Yamaha pickups,I dislike bridge specialy altough both Yamaha pickups sound good split.And I prefer old GOTO pickups over new MKIIs,old GOTO is a very good bridge pickup,rock?n?roll sound.

 

[singemonkey]

I?m sorry but I disagree, MKII while good pickups, are inferior to boutique pickups as Wolfetone,Haussels,W&B and Rolphs. I prefer Seth Lovers over MKII also.It?s my own experience in a LS-180CTM Tokai.

What I said. However, MKIIs are excellent stock pickups - and I think they compete very strongly against Gibson's offerings for example.

 

[JVsearch]

I?m sorry but I disagree, MKII while good pickups, are inferior to boutique pickups as Wolfetone,Haussels,W&B and Rolphs. I prefer Seth Lovers over MKII also.It?s my own experience in a LS-180CTM Tokai.

What I said. However, MKIIs are excellent stock pickups - and I think they compete very strongly against Gibson's offerings for example.

You know the Gibson Classic 57 was voted the best PAF in a pickup shootout including some boutiques, by some guitar magazine (that possibly sells a lot of advertising to Gibson - for those who think/know the world is rigged by people with money). Although I have to add that the Tokai pickups weren't in the shootout - might have been interesting!

People seem to think the Classic 57 is pretty good when it comes in an Orville by Gibson... :wink:

I had some Classic 57s in a Gibson LP and it was a good sounding guitar, but I also had some other pickups, 498 and 500 or something, which I didn't think were all that fantastic. Too much output was one problem - my phaser and some other FX couldn't handle it at all unless the volume on the guitar was right down.

 

[AlanN]

I love the classic 57s in my 339, but they didn't quite work for me in my last 335. I'm not a massive fan of the MKIIs myself, though I agree with the feeling that there are far worse stock pups out there - especially those four hundred and somethings you mention JV that they put in all their SGs for a time. Horrible things.

 

[Mole Man]

Let me know when you find better 335's than Tokais, I'd love to hear them.

so many people upgrade the PUPs and other hardware. Why?

Because they're clueless...not one upgrade is required on a Tokai ES135/155/185...yes, you can "change" things if you want, but you won't be upgrading.

If you're the upgrading type then a nice guitar to upgrade is the Traditional Series ES60.

I'm sorry?? I chose to upgrade the stock pickups in my ES130 because although I liked the basic tone, they had rather a muffled, soupy quality that I felt swamped the natural high end of the guitar. The Manlius Fat Dianes I have in the guitar now are most definitely an improvement to my ear. Changed over the pots, bridge and tailpiece at the same time as it happens.

 

[Mole Man]

Hi BluesFan,

Well I absolutely love my ES130! I haven't tried a new Yamaha SA2200 but I have an early SA2000 from 1977 that I would put up against any ES335 style guitar made by anyone, Japanese or American. You really need to play an example of each, but I feel sure that the chances of finding a shop that will stock both the Yamaha and the Tokai are less than zero...

In a nutshell, I feel that if we are talking new, current models here that the Tokai would appeal more to a player wanting an accurate ES335 replica, the Yamaha more to a sophisticated player, possibly jazz or fusion based. Don't forget that the Yammy has coil taps and gold hardware.

At this level you really must try both guitars before parting with any of the folding stuff...

What a lovely dillema to have!!

Best regards,
Darren

 

[schoey]

Hiya Darren

You make any progress with that SG ???
Iain

 

[Diamond]

Mole Man

We all play our guitars through different amps, so the MK2's will sound different to each one of us....that's why there are a thousand pickup manufacturers all making a living selling pickups.

 

[bashbrook]

In a nutshell, I feel that if we are talking new, current models here that the Tokai would appeal more to a player wanting an accurate ES335 replica, the Yamaha more to a sophisticated player, possibly jazz or fusion based. Don't forget that the Yammy has coil taps and gold hardware.

That seems like a petty good summary to me.
I had an SA2100 that was nice but possibly a bit too "blingy" for me. The gold and extra binding are a bit more ES355 but the thing I really didn't get on with were the pickups. They seemed far too hot to my ears - almost, as someone else has already suggested, that they're done that way to get a better single-coil sound in split mode (which I prefer).

Add me to the list of "clueless" ES120 owners who have upgraded their pickups! I've got Seth Lovers in mine which seem just a bit crisped than the MK11s IIRC. To be honest, I only installed them as I had them lying about but I still like them.

I always think that Matt Schofield (another "clueless" Tokai user!) gets an incredible sound from his ES120. To be fair, he's a killer player and is usually going through a vintage Fender or Two Rock amp so he'd probably make anything sound great!
It's just that there's something quite "single coil" sounding about those pickups he uses - really clear with a lovely bite and shimmer that I didn't quite hear in the stock MK11s.

 

[Diamond]

Add me to the list of "clueless" ES120 owners who have upgraded their pickups!...To be honest, I only installed them as I had them lying about.

There you go.

 

[Mole Man]

Mole Man

We all play our guitars through different amps, so the MK2's will sound different to each one of us....that's why there are a thousand pickup manufacturers all making a living selling pickups.

Sorry Diamond, I thought it was because those choosing to upgrade their ES130's were "clueless". I believe that you are a Tokai dealer and if so you will obviously know your stuff, but even so I found your choice of words a mite arrogant. Anyhow, upgrading/changing (delete as appropriate) guitars can fun - expensive fun, but fun all the same!

 

[bashbrook]

Add me to the list of "clueless" ES120 owners who have upgraded their pickups!...To be honest, I only installed them as I had them lying about.

There you go.

I suppose I was saying that I wouldn't have felt the need to swap the MKIIs if I didn't have a spare set of Seth Lovers already. I think that they are great pickups - I had some in an LS65 and didn't feel the need to change those.

However, I still feel the Seths were an improvement, although I probably would say that (having paid a tech to install them). :wink:

I appreciate that these things are notoriously difficult to prove but I wouldn't suggest that who replaces the MKIIs was "clueless".

I do understand that there's a heck of a lot of snobbery and snake-oil in the replacement pickups game and that the Tokai PAF MKII pickups are great stock units with a good PAF sound.

 

[singemonkey]

I have a '57 PAF and an Angus Young humbucker in my 2008 Angus Young SG (which is in 9.5/10 condition and for sale people ).

I thought the Angus Young pickup is *searing* and the PAF sounds good. But the bridge pickup on my LS150 sounds better than either.

But I suspect that has a lot more to do with the guitars and that, in the end, I'm just not an SG guy.

 

[JVsearch]

...Tokai PAF MKII pickups are great stock units with a good PAF sound.

Isn't the bridge MKII wound hot, like 11k or something? Probably a bit hot to be a PAF.

 

[JVsearch]

...But I suspect that has a lot more to do with the guitars and that, in the end, I'm just not an SG guy.

Yep, SG is very different to a LP - I've found that it has some of the flavour or feel of a single coil type guitar like a Tele for instance. I think it's in the initial pick attack and some sort of treble emphasis maybe. The SG just seems kind of crispy, I can't explain it properly.

Only issue I have with the SG is the playing position - when I go to it after playing a Strat or LP I feel like I can't reach the first fret! Although after 10 minutes you quickly get used to it again. I don't have large hands so I don't have my guitars slung really low, but the SG should probably be worn a bit lower and angled up a bit more than a Strat or LP.

 

[bashbrook]

...Tokai PAF MKII pickups are great stock units with a good PAF sound.

Isn't the bridge MKII wound hot, like 11k or something? Probably a bit hot to be a PAF.

I'm not sure about the specs. I think I still have them lying about so maybe I should check.

Perhaps I would have been better saying that the sound was "somewhere in the whole PAF ballpark" i.e. probably as accurate as most stock pickups with that sort of sound.

I suppose it comes down to the old "what is a PAF sound?" chestnut. My understanding is that they came with either alnico 2, 3, 4 or 5 magnets, some variance in magnet size, number of windings, degree of matching between the windings on each coil, enamel or plastic wire etc.

I've read that the resistance varied between 7-10k so I suppose 11k, if an accurate measurement, would be a little high. However, I don't remember them sounding overwound, either in the Love Rock or ES120. Certainly the sound was, to my ear, far more "in the whole PAF ballpark" than the pickups in my Yamaha SA2100 :wink:

 

[Diamond]

Mk2's - bridge 11,5k, and 7,5k neck.

Pearly Gates - bridge 8,35k, neck 7,3k

SD 59 - bridge 8,1k, neck 7,4k

SD Jazz - bridge 7,9k, neck 7,7k

SD Alnico II Pro-Slash - bridge 8,5k, neck 7,9k


This is from the Gibson site.

Original PAF pickups of 1956-'62 were wound with the wire guided onto the coils by hand, to "approximately" 5,000 turns of wire per coil, which actually meant?according to reports from workers at the Gibson plant back in the day?simply "until the coils were full." This less-than-precise approach accounts for the wide variation in output strength found among original examples examined today, and genuine PAFs will give DC resistance readings from as low as 7.2k ohms up to as high as 8.8k ohms or so

 

[Diamond]

You know what's nice about the MK2's, they're bright...in a Les Paul that's what you want from the guitar, brightness.
If you want to tame the brightness use your tone controls or lower the treble on your amp.

I'll take a bright sounding Les Paul over a dull/compressed/too thick sounding one any day.

 

[Anonymous]

Mk2's - bridge 11,5k, and 7,5k neck.

Pearly Gates - bridge 8,35k, neck 7,3k

My measurements are:

MK II 11.05 & 7.39
Pearly Gates 7.78 & 7.00

The Pearly Gates have an extra touch of brightness in them too, though they are surprisingly low in output.