Tokai Humbucker Models & Resistance

[Sigmania]

D marked Goto PAF

1980 LS60

8.43k Ohm
8.53k Ohm

Tokai Pickups ハムバッカー ピックアップ ダブ... - Yahoo!オークション

 

[Sigmania]

Circa 1983/84

TOKAI 57PAF model ハムバッカーピックアップ - Yahoo!オークション

Resistance value 8.15KΩ
Lead wire approx. 20cm

 

[ayrguitarist]

I recently bought a 1985 TSG-50. I thought that Tokai stopped using the PAF stickers on their pickups in 84, but this one has the stickers on both pups.

Both lead wires are white.

I was curious what the bobbins were, and the magnets, so I took the cover off the bridge pup to have a look.

They're double black bobbins with the square windown.

And the magnet is ceramic. I didn't unwrap the tape so I don't know how thick it is.

Wood (maple) spacers on both sides.

In the guitar, the DC resistance is 18.75k for the bridge and 18.78 in the neck, so probably around 19.5k out of the guitar (being in parallel with a 500k pot).

They definitely don't sound like PAFs.

I suspect these are the same as the earlier LS Dynamic pickups?

 

[Sigmania]

That is interesting! And agreed, definitely not the PAF sound we all look for. LOL

Catalog for 1984 says PAF MKII.

Edit: TSG50 had MKIII

TSG60 got PAF Vintage.

 

[Sigmania]

I just adjusted the post on the first page of this thread to add your readings. I didn't have any for the PAF MKII.

And I added 1985 for the period they show up.

This was an odd time at Tokai. Lots of weird spec stuff going on, and the product line shifted a lot and models disappeared.

 

[ayrguitarist]

That is interesting! And agreed, definitely not the PAF sound we all look for. LOL

Catalog for 1984 says PAF MKII.

TSG60 got PAF Vintage.

No not the PAF tone, but I still like it a lot. They sound really great with light guage strings (9s). And they respond very well to how hard you pick. And they can chug

My favourite sounding guitar is my 1984 LC60. I have a feeling they are the same pickups as the TSG50. They have the same stickers, same white lead wires, and they have high DCR too, but I haven't removed the covers to check the magnets (yet). When I do, I'll post an update here.

I've also got an 85 Mavis LC-60, but it has unmarked, lower output (low 8k), grey wire, alnico pups. Likely the same as the Tokai PAFs. They sound fantastic as well.

 

[ayrguitarist]

I just adjusted the post on the first page of this thread to add your readings. I didn't have any for the PAF MKII.

And I added 1985 for the period they show up.

This was an odd time at Tokai. Lots of weird spec stuff going on, and the product line shifted a lot and models disappeared.

Thats great and happy to provide this info to your already very detailed list. I reference it often so thank you for preparing this.

85 was odd for sure.

My 85 Mavis has 18* headstock angle, basswood body, fret edge bidning, and the pots are from 86 and 87. So it's almost like the guitar wss built in 85 but finish in 87? Could be that it had an LC100 neck since LC60 was usually 14* angle.

If you want me to post the mavis pups I can.

I meant to buy that PAF you posted before my post. I was the first bid on it, but I lost track of when it ended so I missed out. Was buying it for my 85 TSG-60. I have one on the way from Japan but need a second one.

 

[Sigmania]

Oh good. Glad this stuff is helping someone.

The idea of this thread was to begin to gather readings on the different models over the years to get an idea of what was offered.

It is still a work in progress, so your data really helps! Also really helps to see what a misnomer some of these were if they were putting PAF labels on ceramic humbuckers (PAF MKII). I didn't realize that.

Thanks!

 

[J.E.M.]

I recently bought a 1985 TSG-50. I thought that Tokai stopped using the PAF stickers on their pickups in 84, but this one has the stickers on both pups.

Both lead wires are white.

I was curious what the bobbins were, and the magnets, so I took the cover off the bridge pup to have a look.

They're double black bobbins with the square windown.

And the magnet is ceramic. I didn't unwrap the tape so I don't know how thick it is.

Wood (maple) spacers on both sides.

In the guitar, the DC resistance is 18.75k for the bridge and 18.78 in the neck, so probably around 19.5k out of the guitar (being in parallel with a 500k pot).

They definitely don't sound like PAFs.

I suspect these are the same as the earlier

That's a nice guitar and it's the first one I've seen in Canada besides mine, which is an '84 TSG-50 in black, with Tokai PAFs and by some miracle mine is less than 7lbs, and it doesn't neck dive.

 

[ayrguitarist]

That's a nice guitar and it's the first one I've seen in Canada besides mine, which is an '84 TSG-50 in black, with Tokai PAFs and by some miracle mine is less than 7lbs, and it doesn't neck dive.

Thanks.

The SG in my avatar I don't own anymore. Sold it earlier this year. It was an 82.

The one I mentioned above, the one I took the cover off the pickup, is also a black one, which seems to be a much rarer colour. I was hunting for one for awhile, and got really lucky. This one probably sat under someones bed for 38 years. It's barely been played, has the original warranty card, truss rod wrench, ST120V tweed case with the key.

It's also just shy of 7 lbs.

The 82 I had was lighter.

And the 85 TSG60 I have is just a hair over 6lbs, it floats!

 

[ayrguitarist]

Oh good. Glad this stuff is helping someone.

The idea of this thread was to begin to gather readings on the different models over the years to get an idea of what was offered.

It is still a work in progress, so your data really helps! Also really helps to see what a misnomer some of these were if they were putting PAF labels on ceramic humbuckers (PAF MKII). I didn't realize that.

Thanks!

I agree.

When I first played the TSG50, the pups sounded ceramic. And the DCR is high. So I assumed they were LS dynamics, they sound very similar to the 82 TSG50 I had. I've never had another pickup sound like these.

So when I removed the pups to have a look, I was a little surprised (but also happy) that they had the PAF stickers on them.

So then I was very curious what the magnets were inside.

So now I'm very curious if my 84 LC60 pups are also ceramic or alnico. They sound alnico to me, but sometimes our eyes have a bigger impact on tone than our ears

So once I open those up, I'll post gut shots and specs here.

 

[ayrguitarist]

I had time to open up the pickups on my 1984 TLC-60.

I suspected they were the same as my 1985 TSG-50, high DC resistance, but with alnico magnets. They sound similar but different.

I was wrong. I should have guessed.

I guess the difference in sound is coming from the guitars themselves.

They actually appear to be the exact same as the pickups in my 1985 TSG-50. Exact same construction, just different colour pole piece screws (gold).

So ceramic magnets.

In my TLCboth h pups have white lead wires, and both pups measure 18.48k ohm while in the guitar, so likely around 19.2k ohm out of the guitar, when taking the 500k volume pot into consideration.

This time, I unwrapped the tape around the bobbins to see what's going on. It's a big thick ceramic magnet in there, similar to a DiMarzio super distortion.

I have a theory that these are the same pickups as the earlier LS Dynamic pups, although I don't have any at the moment to cross reference, and I'm only basing this on the magnet type, and the DCR, and I do understand there's more to a pickup than those 2 criteria alone.

Another theory is that to tell if the magnet used is alnico or ceramic, without removing the cover, is the thickness of the pickup could be a good indicator. The thicker 17.25mm indicates the thick ceramic mag.

Not sure how thick the alnico pups would be, but the alnico magnet is usually much thinner.

 

[Sigmania]

That’s is wild.

Described as ‘57 PAF Vintage MKII pickups in the 1984 catalog. Something similar in 1985.

Edit: TSG50 had MKIII

The poles look like what I see on ceramic pickups.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Disguising a 19kΩ ceramic pickup with standard optics and a "57 PAF" sticker is wild.

 

[ayrguitarist]

Disguising a 19kΩ ceramic pickup with standard optics and a "57 PAF" sticker is wild.

They couldnt fit "57 PAF, but way way hotter" on the sticker

They sure don't sound like a PAF pickup to my ears.

But I personally love the way they sound, especially in the LC. In fact it's my favourtie sounding guitar that I have. That said, I play mostly metal type music, low tuned, with lots of gain, but not always.

When I saw the stickers on them, I was curious how these sounded so different than a typical PAF type pickup. Now I know, sorta.

I do wonder if both coils are wound the same, and what guage(s) wire was used on them.

I've never heard another pickup like it, and I don't know of any other pickup with similar specs.

 

[Sigmania]

I think this is fascinating. You were mentioning the LS Dynamic from a couple years before.

Now I’m wondering what the readings were on the first Humbuckers listed in catalogs as MKII specifically. They were in the 1981 and then 1982 LS60 models. I looked and I don’t have readings for them.

Your pickups appear to be the next version of MKII if they are what the catalog lists as ‘57 PAF Vintage MKII.

The LS Dynamic were in the LS50 and are what I’m now thinking of as possibly the first MK3 pickups essentially.

 

[ayrguitarist]

I had a 1982 TSG-50 that I sold earlier this year.

It had the original pickups.

In the guitar, those pickups measured 18.2k ohm in the neck and 18.66k in the bridge, so taking the 500k volume pot in parallel into consideration, they would be 18.9k and 19.4k.

I don't have any other measurements unfortunately, and I didn't take the covers off the check the magnet.

But they had a similar sound to the ones in my 85.

 

[Sigmania]

Yeah. The 1982 TSG is probably the 1983 model year which is spec’d with the ‘57 PAF MKII for the TSG50. Did they have the PAF stickers?

Edit: 1983/84 TSG 50 had MKIII

The TSG60 in 1983 has the next level pickups which measure in the PAF range. ‘57 PAF Vintage.

 

[ayrguitarist]

No they didnt have the PAF sticker.

 

[Sigmania]

Also white lead wires. I bet they are the same pickups.

The ‘57 PAF line came in in 1983. They were new. Your 1982 TSG was one of the first made and the TSG line was formally introduced in 1983. I bet it had the new ‘57 PAF pickups whether it had the label or not. Your guitar was made in September. Makes sense.

The bigger question is who thought it was a good idea to put those stickers on the MKII that definitely don’t read in the PAF range.

I had the regular’57 PAF Vintage in a 1983 LS80 and didn’t like the tone. Seemed kind of nasally and lacked some tonal range. Sold the guitar.

I now need to update the description of the ‘57 PAF at the beginning of this thread. Clearly there are two different ones.

Just yesterday I realized that MKII means second, as in there is something above.

MKII Meaning?

In the ‘57 PAF line, the TLS60 & TLS80, TSG60, and TLC100 got the other one.

The TLS50, TSG50 and TLC60 got the MKII.

Edit: TSG50 had MKIII