tokai for investment

[brad347]

not true. As much as I hate it, vintage guitars are considered better than stocks by far. US News and World Report had an article about it a few years back.

Shoot, I remember back in '98 I coulda bought a candyapple red '63 strat for $2k and change and I PASSED on it.

Also, a '59 flametop was worth 15k-20k then and are sometimes getting $150k now, only 7 or 8 years later... I'd say that's a pretty **** solid return on an investment if you ask me.

 

[mike martin]

brad i agree but only with 50-60's strats and early lespauls these guitars were the best, but a few years ago you couldnt give the 70's 3 bolt strats away. i was offered one for ?180 and wouldnt take it cause i just couldnot play the thing. and it was really an awful giutar, i have never seen a silverstar let alone play one so i cant comment on them but i fail to understand why sellers are asking thecrazy prices for them and goldstars, :roll: and springys can still be bought quite reasonably priced

 

[brad347]

mike, it's due to ignorance. Before I found this forum, I would see a Silver Star or whatever on Ebay and be like "Oh, a Tokai strat copy, those are supposed to be pretty good." I had a hunch there was probably more to it so I found this forum and educated myself. There is a relatively big buzz, but little depth of info to the average person.

I played a 3-bolt strat the other day and I too found it horrible. Now, some of the big headstock strats are cool.... the late 60s ones up through the early 70s... some of those are killing. BUT some of those later ones are dogs! The one I played had a thick poly finish that you could blind an audience with if the sunlight hit it! And it was "natural." Looked like the finish on builder-grade kitchen cabinets!

 

[tokaigeezer]

Brad wrote: mike, it's due to ignorance

Err... let me see if I read this correctly. Brad, you have never played a Silver Star yet you seem willing to write them off. An equivalent situation would be for me to say that all non-potted pickups are inherently microphonic and are therefore useless, without me ever actually playing a 1980 LS50. It would be silly for me to say that. I have a 79 Silver Star with a poly finish so thin you can feel the wood grain. It is extremely resonant, lightweight, the neck is nice and narrow and the pickups sing. I won't sell it for anything and I do not care if they increase in value, nor do I care what others think of them.

But if you want to believe springys are far superior, be my guest. I'll keep playing my $300 Silver Star. 8)

 

[brad347]

No, it wouldn't be equivalent to saying that. And no, I don't believe you're understanding it correctly.

Basically, Mike commented that the "originally more expensive" Springys weren't selling for too much more than the "originally less expensive" Silver and Goldstars with "lower quality parts if you look at the specsheet." He expressed an opinion that he thought this was a curious phenomenon.

Then, I expressed that the high prices paid for Silverstars, etc were likely "out of ignorance." Ignorance of the differences between the different Tokai strat models. Ignorance does not mean stupidity; to be ignorant means to be 'uninformed.' Basically, I contend that a lot of first time Tokai buyers, like me, don't realize (are ignorant of!) the fact that all Tokai strat copies are NOT alike... that there are very different levels of specs and (citing people that have played many different ones) quality. Not necessarily build quality, but quality of parts certainly.

I don't think too many people would argue that the one piece cast bridge on the SS-38 is "better" than the bridge on my ST-80, or that the ceramic bar magnet pickups are better than the DiMarzio E-series pickups on the higher models... not to instigate some sort of Tokai snobbery but still...

I haven't written off anything. I've never tried a Silverstar. I'm sure the high end ones are awesome, I happen to love big headstock strats (early 70s only though please!). I almost bought a SS. BUT I sort of do (maybe unfairly) write off the ones with the one piece bridges and bar magnet pickups. Those two features are deal-breakers for me.

Fair enough?

Hope this clears it up. Glad you enjoy your Silver Star. Ever played a high-end Springy? They're awesome. I've owned two Tokai strats and played about four so I'm not as much of an expert as some of these guys but I know enough to know that my ST-80 is AWESOME, I feel lucky to have it.

 

[tokaigeezer]

Hi again Brad

Really not trying to start an argument here ...

I have the feeling we could be comparing apples and oranges. Just popped the guard off my 79 ss38:

Let's see, grey bottom vintage Mark II (definitely alnicos) and although the bridge is cast metal with no markings, it has the proper trem block screwed on per CBS specs. In short, everything a CBS three-bolt genuine Tokai copy oughtta be. :wink:

Perhaps you are confusing the Silver Stars with the later Custom Editions, which are not the same guitars. (the quality really started to slip after 1985 and Tokai started to use cheaper components)

What I'm trying to say is that the Silver Stars, even the cheaper ones, have a pretty high quality sound. Hence, soundwise, they are relatively good deals right now, even with the outrageous shipping from Japan. Of course they are going up in price, like everything else, unfortunately. And they are three-bolts, which are anathema to most Strat players. I sold a beat-up (reliced) SS38 in vintage white (rosewood board) at cost to a friend and he promptly got rid of his American Strat, and now his buddies are trying to buy the Silver Star off him.

Hey, how is that es347? I read an article on them in Vintage Guitar a few years back. Does yours have those sustain sister dirty finger pickups? I'll bet it sounds awesome. And I agree that newer G*bson electrics have really fallen off the table, which is why I just picked up a 1980 Reborn Old.

Also I'm not questioning your ears ... of course you play for a living, and I don't (have played a few weddings, of all things, which were pretty fun actually, mostly because they didn't throw us out of the hall :lol. But I do play every day through a dry Fender tube amp and I do appreciate good sounds.

Have a nice holiday in the Big Apple! Have you ever seen Les Paul at the Iridium? I know I'd like to.

take care

Steve

 

[brad347]

Hey hey. I always understood the specs of the SS38 to be different. Yours sounds like a keeper. I never questioned that Silver Stars in general were good guitars, I'm sure they are. I've never played one of any number.

The ES-347 is a great guitar. Mine is from '84... I think you're a little bit misinformed about the specs... the "Sustain Sisters" and "Dirty Fingers Pickups" are actually two different things. The "Sustain Sisters" are two pieces of brass that are set into the center block that the bridge and tailpiece are screwed into (invisible). They really work! I love the way this guitar sustains. The "Dirty Fingers Pickups" were extremely hot humbuckers wound with 44 gauge wire (hotter than a DiMarzio Super Distortion of the time!) and my particular guitar does NOT have those, they were phased out by the time mine was built. I'm glad for this, I don't happen to like really hot humbuckers. My guitar has the regular Gibson humbuckers of the time and they are quite nice.

Usually those guitars have the ugly TP-6 fine tuning tailpiece, mine has the good old gold Stop tailpiece, and I prefer that (I don't need the fine tuners... never have). I don't know if it came from the factory this way or if someone agrees with me and replaced it before I got it. I suspect the latter. Mine is Cherry red with some nice flame under the translucent finish. In all, a real winner. VERY versatile guitar. Coil tap is useless on this guitar though... single coil sounds are NOT convincing to my ears.

Never seen Les at the Iridium yet. Would like to while he was still here, more just on principle than anything. After the arthiritis he plays really differently now, I understand it's still worth hearing though. Never made it out yet.

PS I think as far as Gibsons go the last period at the Kalamazoo plant (1980-1985) are the last sleepers in the Gibson market. This was the last great return to form in quality, the 70s were largely dodgy, and from the buyout in 1985 by Henry Whatsisname quality has been a steady decline. THose last years in K-zoo they were really getting it back. My 347 rules and a friend has an '83 ES-335 which is seriously the best 335 I have ever played, even better than some 60s ones I've tried out! I had a 1983 LP Custom and the workmanship was incredible, and it was beautiful, but the sound admittedly didn't do it for me. I'm just not a Les Paul guy. Definitely a quality guitar though.

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[tokaigeezer]

hey hey hey no problem

I have a 78 LP Pro Deluxe that was one of the first log canoes built in the Nashville plant. It actually plays pretty well and sounds great with the P90s but it weighs more than 11 pounds! and this was typical for the era. i've seen some on FleaBay that weigh nearly 12 pounds!

p.s. Saw a recent photo of Keith Richard and man are his fingers gnarly with arthritis. He oughtta be given a medal for still playing, along with Les Paul.

 

[mike martin]

same here
i was only trying to understand, as to why some are willing to pay such hi prices for a copy. also when i was refering to 70's strats i was actually meaning f***rs, not silverstars and brad im the same about myst85 springy, as good as any ever built, maybe one day ill get a silverstar when the price is right, i will not pay over the odds for one

 

[mike martin]

hey tokaigeezer
i had a 77 lespaul delux as well, mine was the same . kept it for 2 months
and got rid of it, weight was awful, probably why i couldnt play it very well

 

[brad347]

I meant F***rs when I was talking about the 70s strat I played recently too.


I've played pre-CBS Fenders that were better than my Springy, but that's all.

 

[tokaigeezer]

All is cool ... didn't mean to overreact

you're right ... here's the ones to blame ... it's those F*****s at F****r! :wink:

 

[tokaigeezer]

All is cool ... didn't mean to overreact

you're right ... here's the ones to blame ... it's those F*****s at F****r! :wink:

 

[orvilleowner]

i had a 77 lespaul delux as well, mine was the same . kept it for 2 months and got rid of it, weight was awful, probably why i couldnt play it very well

My '74 Les Paul Deluxe is quite light. I guess that establishes the variation in Gibson's 70's models.

 

[brad347]

what it really establishes in the variations in the trees that they cut down

 

[chrislpp]

well mine was made in 2005....by2045 i hope to have an aged relic

everyone thinks ''buy an old relic'' but why buy an old man when you have his children?
________
Deposit premium dicussion

 

[bruceboomstick]

I just thought I'd add something to this.

I think that a good guitar will hold it's value regardless of make and model - it won't necessarily hold the price you paid for it, but it will have a pretty consistant second hand value - I bought a MIJ Jackson Rhodes on ebay for 300GBP and sold it a year later for the same (It was like have a years free use of a guitar).

I think the only guarenteed way of making money on guitars is if you are lucky enough to find a bargain - ie you get it for a lot less than market value.

Sometimes you can get lucky and a particular model will get popular and it's value will go up rapidly - but it's not guarenteed.

I reckon if you went to a financial adviser and told him you wanted to stake your future weath on some vintage guitars he/she would probably do all they could to talk you out of it (that said looking at my pension fund I reckon I'll be spending my twilight years busking for change )

 

[LoveRocksRule]

i can assure u if i were to buy an old vintage tokai i certainly would be playing it thats for sure.... those old gutiars have a better sound that most of todays Tokais...( unless they have somthing wrong with them...

even if i got a real vintage 59 les paul im sure it would come out of the case and get plaid a lot to..... i aint into buying axes to NOT play then.... aafter all thats what they were desgned for wasnt it????



Dave

 

[bruceboomstick]

Agreed I don't get these guys that buy and the store it. I think a guitar that's old and has a few battle scars is far more interesting than one that hasn't - it's got a history.

Buy 'em play 'em, if it gains some value so much the better - if not who cares?

Anyone can make money, but not many can make music (ack!! can't believe I just said that - someone pass the cheese grater )