Tell Us What Mods You,ve Done To Your Tokai(s)If Any?

[ArthurS]

Foil-sheilded cavity

Can I ask why you had this done? Doesn't your LS200 have the shielding paint in the cavity, or do you find that it is quieter when it's foil-shielded?

Might also get that 'treble retainer' mod done, and if I can find one I'll get a Gibson TRC. Anyone know where I can get one in the UK? Can't seem to find any shops that'll supply them.

You could also do the '50s wiring mod'. If you look on the Les Paul Forum, you'll find that most people do this mod for the same reason (ie. to retain treble when lowering the volume). Supposedly it is incredibly easy, something like switching two wires on each pot.

 

[Paladin2019]

Foil-sheilded cavity

Can I ask why you had this done? Doesn't your LS200 have the shielding paint in the cavity, or do you find that it is quieter when it's foil-shielded?

Might also get that 'treble retainer' mod done, and if I can find one I'll get a Gibson TRC. Anyone know where I can get one in the UK? Can't seem to find any shops that'll supply them.

You could also do the '50s wiring mod'. If you look on the Les Paul Forum, you'll find that most people do this mod for the same reason (ie. to retain treble when lowering the volume). Supposedly it is incredibly easy, something like switching two wires on each pot.

It does have the paint which was pretty quiet but I thought a bit more protection couldn't hurt what with all the extra unshielded wire that was going in (plus the uncovered pups), and my tech did it free of charge anyway because he was doing so much other stuff in there at the same time when I had the initial mods done.

I'm not sure how to do the 50's mod with my altered wiring scheme, but the treble retainer caps do pretty much the same job but you can play with the values to alter the level of the effect so I'm sticking with that. Come to think of it, do tokai fit the 50's wiring from the factory? seems like an important yet easily followed detail for historical accuracy.

 

[ned]

My NLS-80 does not have the 50's wiring scheme. It does have 500K pots though.

Ned

 

[ArthurS]

It does have the paint which was pretty quiet but I thought a bit more protection couldn't hurt what with all the extra unshielded wire that was going in (plus the uncovered pups), and my tech did it free of charge anyway because he was doing so much other stuff in there at the same time when I had the initial mods done.

Yeah probably not a bad idea to add some more shielding to the cavity in those circumstances, especially when the tech does it for free. And even if it doesn't reduce noise, it looks pretty cool this way! Like LRUK said, I too can imagine that airport security would be suspicous

(As a matter of fact, I recently read a post on the Les Paul Forum where someone took his newly bought LP Standard from the US on board the plane to the UK and security would not let him pass, because the guard in question said the guitar 'had too many knobs'. Supposedly, I wasn't until a guitar-playing collegue of the guard came and asked the guy if it was an LP Standard or Custom, that he was allowed to enter the plane with it)

I'm not sure how to do the 50's mod with my altered wiring scheme, but the treble retainer caps do pretty much the same job but you can play with the values to alter the level of the effect so I'm sticking with that. Come to think of it, do tokai fit the 50's wiring from the factory? seems like an important yet easily followed detail for historical accuracy.

Hmm indeed it seems that the cap-method has an advantage there. Also, I can confirm that the new Love Rocks don't come with 50's wiring as far as I know.

 

[Paladin2019]

Yeah probably not a bad idea to add some more shielding to the cavity in those circumstances, especially when the tech does it for free. And even if it doesn't reduce noise, it looks pretty cool this way! Like LRUK said, I too can imagine that airport security would be suspicous

(As a matter of fact, I recently read a post on the Les Paul Forum where someone took his newly bought LP Standard from the US on board the plane to the UK and security would not let him pass, because the guard in question said the guitar 'had too many knobs'. Supposedly, I wasn't until a guitar-playing collegue of the guard came and asked the guy if it was an LP Standard or Custom, that he was allowed to enter the plane with it)

I read about that one. Too many knobs... lordy knows what they'd make of mine which really does have too many!

Luckily I don't plan on taking it to foreign climes any time soon 8)

 

[tubedogsmith]

Paladin, did you need to poke another hole in the headstock for that trussrod cover?

 

[Paladin2019]

Paladin, did you need to poke another hole in the headstock for that trussrod cover?

You would need to fill and re-drill the upper hole if you bought a Gibson cover as the spacing is a couple of mm off. When I had a modern-style Gibson one on there I filed a bigger hole in the cover itself (I didn't want to re-drill anything if it could be avoided) but it didn't look very good up close. I'd recommend getting a decent tech to re-drill the hole.

I don't think it'd harm the value for the same reason you wouldn't want to go back to the old version - gibson's bell is much nicer looking and more accurate.

 

[Ian Harvey]

Hi Paladin!

Nice looking guitar.

I'd like to ask about the Tone Pros tailpiece studs and Gotoh aluminium tailpiece. Specifically...

Is the stop bar nickel plated?
Is it a perfect fit on the Tokai studs?
Where did you get it from?
Do you have a part number for it?
Why the Tone Pros studs?

Sorry about the Qs; I'd like to get an aluminium stop bar, providing it'll fit my LS80F.

BTW - I've also fitted a Gibson TR cover. I re-used the existing hole nearest the nut and 'dremelled' a new hole at the other end, there being clearance between it and the original hole.

 

[Paladin2019]

Hi Ian, I'll see what I can do:

Yes the stopbar is nickel plated - I've never seen a chrome plated aluminium TP, I guess the makers assume people wouldn't want a luxury item like that on a less expensive guitar.

It is a perfect fit - the outer dimensions are slightly different but the string holes and stud hooks lined up pefectly with my old one. The alu TP is slightly thinner and the back of the 'hump' is slightly altered to provide a better angle for top-wrapping.

I got it from www.pincotts.com - the UK allparts distributor. They list it as 'featherweight' and also offer an aged nickel option. TP 3406-001 for the standard one, about ?60. When you consider the gibson version is ?150 it makes you want to scream.

The tonepro system was bought on a whim back when I had some spare cash. I reckon the entire tonepros line is an overdue idea, but an expensive luxury if you're upgrading from standard hardware. There was a slight improvement in tone, but the stability aspect is what they should be marketing. The studs look much better than the tone pro tailpiece as you can't tell any difference from stock unless you look hard, but they do leave little ring marks where the edges of the screw tops rest (invisible unless you take the TP off). I don't think they make a bridge that directly retrofits tokai's bridges but a good tech could easily fit the new posts that would be needed.

As for the aluminium TP itself... I found it helped sustain and volume (though some people actually report a LOSS of sustain) and made the tone smoother and sweeter, with notes a bit more 'rounded'. I also noticed that decay of sustaining notes was much smoother. The effects were most noticeable clean, unplugged or at low gain. It takes away some of the bite and edge so if you're into heavy stuff you may be better off with a heavy TP. For anything else, the alu TP would be an improvement IMO.

Anything needs clarifying, ask away!

 

[Ian Harvey]

Hi Paladin!

Many thanks for that - much appreciated.

The reason I asked about the nickel plating and the part number for the stop bar was that (although totally agreeing with your logic) when I looked on Brandoni's site, their list of parts says -

Les paul tailpiece, chrome/gold ?8 - ?10
GE101AM Les paul tailpiece, gotoh, aluminium, chromed ?27
GE101AM-T Les paul tailpiece, gotoh, aluminium, chromed ?24

I don't suppose you have any experience with pickup covers do you? I'm also keen to get some nickel-plated covers.

I'll take another look at Pincott's site, now that I'm armed with the part number.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Paladin2019]

Oh yes, I remember asking brandoni about a nickel version ages ago but they didn't have one. Very strange. And how did they manage to sell them so cheap?

Pickup covers are outside my experience but I'm pretty sure pincotts sell those too. The spacing etc. should be fine on them.

 

[supernout]

Mods to my 320:

I replaced the wiring from pots to switch to jack with 100pF/meter coax cable from my local electronic store. The original wire wasn’t single-shielded (crosstalk!) and measured some 180pF/meter. Braided-shield cable varies from 250 to 350pF/meter.

I took out the cts long-shaft-pots, measured them, used the highest resistant one as volume neck, the second highest as tone neck (modified to no-load) – the other two as bridge volume and tone (unmodified) controls.

I “created” zebra Pu’s from two different sets (gotoh creme & vh-1 black) – lower resistant coils outside (slug) – higher resistant coils inside (screw). Ceramic magnet for neck – alnico for bridge. The overall construction is PAF-like. Finally I replaced the neck Pu lead with 100pF/meter cable as well and shortened it as much as possible. Both Pu’s read about 8.4 kOhm at jack.

I like to switch a lot during playing live and that is the best way I’ve found to match the Pu’s to a well-balanced sound and output. Even at a low overdrive or crunch setting there are many overtones and harmonies jumping out now.



I further replaced the blackcats to ordinary condensers, neck 22nF – bridge 6.8nF, switch middle position out of phase. I ordered U.S. threaded Schaller steel saddles from the States and therefore have to change the gotoh bridge to a gibbo ABR-1 soon. I’m still looking for metric threaded steel saddles which I can use in combination with a leftover nicely aged late ’70 Tokai original style ABR-1 bridge. Any link would help.

The tuners and bushings are aged, tailpiece and studs still have to. I replaced the TRC to a leftover reborn TRC and removed the Rhythm/Treble ring.

 

[Novosel]

I don't suppose you have any experience with pickup covers do you? I'm also keen to get some nickel-plated covers.

Cheers,
Ian

Ian, here's some info on nickel covers you may find interesting. I wanted to change over the chrome hardware on my '84 ALS60 to a more aged look (can you believe this twenty year-old guitar still gleamed like I just brought it home? Maybe some people desire that, but after seeing what Tom Murphy et all can do, I wanted to funk mine up a bit too! Different strokes, right?). Anyway, after much searching, I bought one very nicely aged cover at a guitar show, only to find...that the pole-spacing on my Tokai 57 PAF's were a hair different. I don't think this would be a problem if you have after-market PU's - I'm guessing that the spacing would be pretty much standardized - but if your'e sticking with the stock pickups, you may have a problem.

The solution came at the suggestion of a local guitar tech. I took the covers to an electro-plating company, you know, one that does silverware and trophies and stuff. On examining the covers, they discoverd that they were indeed nickel under the chrome, so they could just strip the chrome and polish up the nickel. A week later they proudly presented me with a gleaming pair of mirror-like covers (and were horrified when I told them what I was gonna do to them - muriatic acid, sandpaper, etc!). It cost me $20 per cover - not cheap, but I now have a pair that perfectly fits my Tokai PAFs. And the ageing turned out tremendous.

I also picked up an aged nickel lightweight tailpiece and bridge at that guitar show. The TP doesn't have a brand name on it, but it fits over the original Tokai studs - which is a really good thing, because the studs they supplied with it are Standard threads, which will not go into the Metric threaded anchors on the Tokai. So rather than attempt to remove (rip out?!) the original anchors, I just used the existing Tokai posts. They are chrome, but you cannot tell any difference.

Hope this helps some. Any other questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Ian Harvey]

Hi!

supernout - lovely guitar; that's the colour (or, more accurately, lack of!) that I'd like my next Lester to be.

Paladin - it really *does* seem very cheap for an aluminium stop bar... maybe I'll ask them about a nickel one as well, just in case. I'll let you know how I get on with Pincotts re the covers and stop bar. The improvement you are getting with the alu SB sound like just the things I'm looking for (plus it's more historically accurate <g>).

Novosel - thanks for that info; very interesting (as all the responses have been, actually - what a great forum!). So I gather from what you're saying that your pup covers were solid nickel and not nickel plated. I'd always assumed that nickel pup covers were plated; shows how little I know!

I'm also planning to leave the stop bar inserts in place, and also keep the chrome posts (unless I come across any metric-sized nickel posts I guess).

There certainly is a wide range of likes and dislikes relating to artificial or natural ageing. My own preference is to start with a new guitar and live with it. I like the idea of the guitar ageing gracefully. But I also understand that people hanker after the '50 year's hard use' look. There again, I'd love to own a piece of history if I could afford it.

Best wishes,
Ian

 

[supernout]

Hi again,

Rockinger sells a nickel plated alu stoptail incl. posts & studs for 49 Euro. It's M8 (metric thread). There's an easy way to get out the posts. Remove the studs and put one of these humbucker steel slugs or something similar inside the post. Insert the stud again and each turn will lift up the post. Don't tell it to Les Paul Forum!! :lol:

My info is that there are two kinds of pu covers. brass or german silver - each chrome, nickel or gold plated. The german silver covers were used in the early days by gibbo. It's said that german silver doesn't cut off that much treble compared to brass covers.

Anyway, I once measured both and found out that brass cuts off about twice as much of the resonance frequency peak compared to german silver, which still cuts off about 2 or 3dB. If you use no-load tone pots you can compensate this loss to a certain extend.

Rockinger offers 49mm / 50.5mm / 53mm pp distance nickel plated german silver covers for 8,80 Euro each. The usual japanese pp distance is 50mm. So 50.5mm is the mentioned "hair distance" and works as well. Unfortunately I have not found any covers for the Tokai Neck PU spacing of 47.5mm.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Ian Harvey]

Hi supernout!

I've ticked the box to buy a Duesenburg (sp?) alu stop bar. Great price, and judging from a little light Internet reading, the quality is supposed to be excellent.

Thing is, I figured I'd order the pup covers at the same time. I measured the polepiece spacing and made a note in my Palm when I bought my guitar. I measured the bridge pup at 48mm and the neck pup at 46mm. I'm more than willing to accept a margin of error as my micrometer is very cheap, but I wonder if I'm measuring from the wrong points.

I measured the distance between the centres of the low and high E string screws.

Referring back to the method of extracting the stop bar insert - I take it from your description that they are completely cylindrical, open at *both* ends? I have to admit I've never shone a torch down one!

Best wishes,
Ian

 

[Paladin2019]

The stop bar cylinders are open both ends, but I don't understand why you think you need to remove them? You can use the original studs with a new stopbar. I've just checked a metric and imperial stud against each other and while the threads and inserts differ greatly in size (the metric is a lot smaller), the screw top and the bit that the stop bar hooks to are identical.

 

[Ian Harvey]

Hi Paladin!

No, I'm not intending to extract the inserts. Good heavens - the finish flaked a little just drilling a tiny pilot hole for the pick guard bracket! I dread to think what damage I might to trying to get those inserts out :roll:

And like you say - there's not much point (apart from masochism).

I was just curious about the extraction method that supernout mentioned.

It's good to have it confirmed that non-threaded bits are same fit.

I've just ordered the Duesenberg alu/nickel stop bar from www.rockinger.com. As soon as it arrives I'll give you all the low-down.

Best wishes,
Ian

 

[supernout]

Hi Ian,

Well, you’d better go and buy a ruler. :lol: But you’re right with the method of measuring.
Paladin’s right as well but I personally wouldn’t combine chrome with nickel plated stuff, not only for visual reasons. I once read in the LesPaulForum that chrome sounds completely different compared to aged nickel, and I think they’re right with it... :roll:

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Hi Luvrocker,

The top frequency is the loudest frequency within the frequency range of the pu. When you roll back the tone pot, the top frequeny and its peak decrease at the same time. A fully closed tonepot will only lift up the peak of the top frequency again. That’s exactly why the sound becomes louder or more distorted compared to a half-closed tonepot. It pushes the sound and that’s what I like.
Cheap ceramic or polyprop caps seem to be more self-resonant and work best with this effect. And my closed 6.8nF bridge tonepot kicks *** and sounds like a sawtooth, perfect for solo-ing. 22nF neck is the usual clapton-cream thing. My experience is that higher values than 22nF will deaden the sound too much. I’ll try something between 10 and 22nF next time.

The pu’s are identical, apart from the magnets. Therefore my standard switch-in-middle-position oop sound is thin and notchy. But rolling back the bridge volume to 9 will bring a needful amount of bass back – and a very interesting sound then.

BTW, the ‘V’ on the image was supposed to be a reflection. Actually it is a ‘B’ :lol: