leadguitar_323 said:
Well tell us please all "info" about his guitar:
1. Have you played this guitar?
2. Who commissioned the production order?
3. What is the origin of the agreement to sell Tokai CA?
Thanks to post this info!
Removed
- Thread starter Wicked_Tone
- Start date
Help Support Tokai Forum:
- Status
Well tell us please all "info" about his guitar:
1. Have you played this guitar?
2. Who commissioned the production order?
3. What is the origin of the agreement to sell Tokai CA?
Thanks to post this info!
This is a very grey area - Gibson owns the trademark of the open book headstock, but only in the US. The UK is using the dimpled open book headstock which has not been tested in court. The usual situation in other places where Gibson has not registered its trademark, is that the local Gibson distributor will try and pressure the Tokai dealers to piss off, which is why you don't see many shops that sell Gibson AND Tokai.
The Les Paul body on the other hand is free to the world, including the neck angles, binding, placement of pickups, stop tail, ABR, knobs etc. So, the only illegal bit is trying to sell Tokais with open book headstocks in the USA.
It is the same deal with the Fender Strat although I believe they could get the pickguard trademarked if they tried.
So, Tokais are mostly not illegal, and it has to be accepted that they never were either. Fakais are illegal because they infringe Tokais trademark of the company name, but where is that trademark registered? There may be places where it is legal to sell a Fakai, although there's other laws that can be used against them. But none of this is criminal.
Tokai etc, can infringe trademarks all day in Japan, there's nothing that can stop them. It's the same as the Indians making generic drugs by stealing the recipes from Pfizer or whoever. The Indian Govt simply says they are morally obligated to try and provide drugs that their people can afford, and to allow the drug company to enforce their legal rights here in India would be like killing my own countrymen, so f*ck off. I agree with this personally, but drugs are more important to sustaining life than guitars. The point is that Aus or US laws for example have no relevance or any effect in Japan, and never will.
The Les Paul body on the other hand is free to the world, including the neck angles, binding, placement of pickups, stop tail, ABR, knobs etc. So, the only illegal bit is trying to sell Tokais with open book headstocks in the USA.
It is the same deal with the Fender Strat although I believe they could get the pickguard trademarked if they tried.
So, Tokais are mostly not illegal, and it has to be accepted that they never were either. Fakais are illegal because they infringe Tokais trademark of the company name, but where is that trademark registered? There may be places where it is legal to sell a Fakai, although there's other laws that can be used against them. But none of this is criminal.
Tokai etc, can infringe trademarks all day in Japan, there's nothing that can stop them. It's the same as the Indians making generic drugs by stealing the recipes from Pfizer or whoever. The Indian Govt simply says they are morally obligated to try and provide drugs that their people can afford, and to allow the drug company to enforce their legal rights here in India would be like killing my own countrymen, so f*ck off. I agree with this personally, but drugs are more important to sustaining life than guitars. The point is that Aus or US laws for example have no relevance or any effect in Japan, and never will.
JV, thanks for your input.
The name "Les Paul" is a Japanese registered trademark that belongs to the Gibson Guitar Corporation. Registration numbers are 1522394 and 3310140. I don't think the issue was grey to Tokai at all as they stopped using the name altogether. Anyone cares to find out whether "Tokai" is a registered trademark in Korea?
If we were to decide whether making fakes is a criminal act according to local rules, and assuming (as many of you seem to believe) that these Asian countries lack appropriate trademark laws that should protect trademarks, manufacturing of fakais should be just as legitimate as use of "Les Paul" on Tokais. Thus, the blame is to be put on the party who breach the local rule, which in this case would be the Canadian distributors of fakais and auction sellers.
Man, we have veered off too far from where we had started.
The name "Les Paul" is a Japanese registered trademark that belongs to the Gibson Guitar Corporation. Registration numbers are 1522394 and 3310140. I don't think the issue was grey to Tokai at all as they stopped using the name altogether. Anyone cares to find out whether "Tokai" is a registered trademark in Korea?
If we were to decide whether making fakes is a criminal act according to local rules, and assuming (as many of you seem to believe) that these Asian countries lack appropriate trademark laws that should protect trademarks, manufacturing of fakais should be just as legitimate as use of "Les Paul" on Tokais. Thus, the blame is to be put on the party who breach the local rule, which in this case would be the Canadian distributors of fakais and auction sellers.
Man, we have veered off too far from where we had started.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Minoupark & Special K - could you tell me what your agenda is here? You're entitled to your views, & entitled to express them, but I don't get where you're coming from. You're supporting the companies/distributors who produced, distributed, & sold these guitars, claiming them to be genuine Tokais "Make In Korea".
You think this is a good thing? For whom? The buyers? Tokai? Or just the few who defraud naive buyers and make a fast buck?
When did Tokai ever defraud anybody in this way? I really don't get your line on this point - and you are both dragging it out more than a little bit....
:roll:
You think this is a good thing? For whom? The buyers? Tokai? Or just the few who defraud naive buyers and make a fast buck?
When did Tokai ever defraud anybody in this way? I really don't get your line on this point - and you are both dragging it out more than a little bit....
:roll:
All I wanted to say is that people could be a bit nicer to newcomers than using nasty terms such as "criminal" when describing someone's guitar. The rest I was trying to show Diamond's questioning me was wrong and how his argument lacked logic. It's been dragged out too long, I agree. But at least this discussion should help when we deal with another innocent newcomer who shows up with a fakai in his hands. The guy did nothing wrong. It is the fakai manufacturers and distributors that did the bad things and fooled him into buying one without knowing it is a fake.[/quote]
All I wanted to say is that people could be a bit nicer to newcomers than using nasty terms such as "criminal" when describing someone's guitar. The rest I was trying to show Diamond's questioning me was wrong and how his argument lacked logic. It's been dragged out too long, I agree. But at least this discussion should help when we deal with another innocent newcomer who shows up with a fakai in his hands. The guy did nothing wrong. It is the fakai manufacturers and distributors that did the bad things and fooled him into buying one without knowing it is a fake.
A
Anonymous
Guest
OK, I agree that one or two people could have been a little more chilled when dealing with this particular query. I think avoiding the word "criminal" in future might be helpful.
Anyway, here's another way of looking at it - Tokai made the mistake initially when they started making guitars away from Japan using their own respected name. They shouldn't have allowed the Tokai name to be used on these cheaper guitars, they should have kept the name for the Japanese product only. Korean stuff should have gone out with Tokai's version of the "Squier by Fender" name. Then faking Korean Tokais would have been less attractive to the criminals - sorry, the fakers.
So, it's all Tokai's fault.
8)
Anyway, here's another way of looking at it - Tokai made the mistake initially when they started making guitars away from Japan using their own respected name. They shouldn't have allowed the Tokai name to be used on these cheaper guitars, they should have kept the name for the Japanese product only. Korean stuff should have gone out with Tokai's version of the "Squier by Fender" name. Then faking Korean Tokais would have been less attractive to the criminals - sorry, the fakers.
So, it's all Tokai's fault.
8)
stratman323 said:
I will agree to that, it's like Tokai took the slippery slope at a time when they couldn't shift enough high-end product. Tokai have been associated with Korean manufacturers going back to the early 70's and were well placed to push a few buttons to meet the high demand for entry level instruments.
soundcreation
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 345
- Reaction score
- 0
People who buy and play copies giving **** to someone who buys and plays a copy of a copy....LOL
You're starting to sound like gibson snobs...HA..
I know I know, "Tokai never used the name gibson..
"... Splitting hairs..plain and simple.
...(as mentioned they did use "les paul" in the EXACT same font as gibson)....yeah..they weren't trying to fool anyone were they....
Some of you need to get a life.
You're starting to sound like gibson snobs...HA..
I know I know, "Tokai never used the name gibson..
"... Splitting hairs..plain and simple....(as mentioned they did use "les paul" in the EXACT same font as gibson)....yeah..they weren't trying to fool anyone were they....
Some of you need to get a life.
Minoupark said:
With respect...
How do you interpret this as me questioning you?
""Not an official Love Rock Model from Tokai" is putting it very mildly....it's an illegal fake produced & manufactured by criminals"
It's not a question, it's a statement.
Diamond said:
It was all the hyperbole Bro, you know, criminals this, destroy that, I wouldn't play such a guitar etc, that kind of added up to saying that someone who would buy one of these guitars or say they were reasonable axes must be a criminal. You didn't actually say that, but it could have been implied.
I felt it a bit myself, but then I'm VERY sensitive and a drama queen so that doesn't mean much. :wink:
CliffsGuitarWorld
Well-known member
SO...... If Gibson holds a copy right to the open headstock in USA... Why is it that new Tokais are sold to the USA buyers and used ones are sold over and over?......
singemonkey
Well-known member
It looks like things have got exciting on this thread.
It seems to me there's one very clear cut principle here: Tokai never tried, or hoped, or actually ever managed, to get customers to think that their guitars were Gibsons - at any point in their history.
No one ever bought a Tokai, brought it home, and then was shocked to realise it wasn't the same brand of guitar that Jimmy Page plays. Tokais message was not, "Get a Gibson nice and cheap." It was, "We make guitars just like Gibson used to make them before they became crap."
Fakais are of course unethical - unlike Tokais. Tokais would be illegal in some countries - but not through ethical reasoning, but because of monopolistic copyright laws justified by absurd double-talk about incentivising innovation.
Passing off your work as somebody else's for profit is just wrong however you slice it.
But that doesn't mean that the people who buy them, knowingly, or unknowingly, are criminals or should destroy their purchases without any hope of compensation. That would just be foolish.
Buying one knowingly is a bit of a grey area. You're certainly not helping out the company who owns the name by supporting the market in fakes. But on the other hand, that faker company's now failed to fool you, so the name becomes largely irrelevant unless you intend to con people when you re-sell it.
All in all, it doesn't seem fair to demonise someone for buying one. Especially if they're already feeling bad for having been tricked. Although there's an obvious case for demonising the company producing them - since their intention was to profit through deceit.
It seems to me there's one very clear cut principle here: Tokai never tried, or hoped, or actually ever managed, to get customers to think that their guitars were Gibsons - at any point in their history.
No one ever bought a Tokai, brought it home, and then was shocked to realise it wasn't the same brand of guitar that Jimmy Page plays. Tokais message was not, "Get a Gibson nice and cheap." It was, "We make guitars just like Gibson used to make them before they became crap."
Fakais are of course unethical - unlike Tokais. Tokais would be illegal in some countries - but not through ethical reasoning, but because of monopolistic copyright laws justified by absurd double-talk about incentivising innovation.
Passing off your work as somebody else's for profit is just wrong however you slice it.
But that doesn't mean that the people who buy them, knowingly, or unknowingly, are criminals or should destroy their purchases without any hope of compensation. That would just be foolish.
Buying one knowingly is a bit of a grey area. You're certainly not helping out the company who owns the name by supporting the market in fakes. But on the other hand, that faker company's now failed to fool you, so the name becomes largely irrelevant unless you intend to con people when you re-sell it.
All in all, it doesn't seem fair to demonise someone for buying one. Especially if they're already feeling bad for having been tricked. Although there's an obvious case for demonising the company producing them - since their intention was to profit through deceit.
I didn't demonise Wicked Tone or call him a criminal....
I called the man who had the guitars illegally made, and the people that actually built the guitars and put the TOKAI decal on the headstocks criminals...and I stand by that.
I'm feel very sorry for Wicked Tone that he unknowingly bought a Fakai...if I was him I'd return it and ask for a refund...he deserves the real thing, not a fake.
Tell me who the seller is, I'll get you your money back.
I called the man who had the guitars illegally made, and the people that actually built the guitars and put the TOKAI decal on the headstocks criminals...and I stand by that.
I'm feel very sorry for Wicked Tone that he unknowingly bought a Fakai...if I was him I'd return it and ask for a refund...he deserves the real thing, not a fake.
Tell me who the seller is, I'll get you your money back.
stratman323 said:
Share and exchange information.
Thats where I'm from.
I was suggesting WT may want to get his $ back from the Ebay seller.
Make a legit claim , and put the $ to another guitar.
If he chooses to keep the axe, then I am interested to have him share information about it. (as my post state)
Apparently Lead Guitar claims too all ready to know everything about it.
So I want to hear his story too.
About the You tube clips. http://www.youtube.com/user/steveb334#p/u/5/fFEWlomCaCs
I just think thats not the best way to judge a guitar, especially when its that bad (the clip) and flooded with reverb.
This appears to me as a question.Diamond said:
Hmmm, this could also be a question. Both appear to end with a question mark each. That usually means the sentence is a question.Diamond said:
BTW, the "statement" of your own you quoted is prior to my first comment made on this thread, so I could not possibly refer to that as being questions addressed to me. I thought you could figure that out :lol:
Yes I agree, and think your post are valid.Minoupark said:
All post are valid, some better than others, thats why this is a Forum.
Some members insist that you must agree to their Story.
If not, you may risk their insults, invalidation to this forum, and a threat to actually contact the company and ask them for information.
(oooh ... I'm so scared. Please don't do that...)
- Status
