My first Tokai..many QC issues *High Resolution pics page 2*
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supreme
Well-known member
Cheers Richard/guitarslinger, I really appreciate that post of yours, made me feel a bit better.
ToneTimes2
Active member
Come on fellas. I mean I realize this is a Tokai forum and mostly comprised of fans that own Tokais, but some of those problems can't be blamed on the dealer, like the binding errors for example. I think the original poster has a legitimate concern about the QC of Tokai's low end offerings. In a year and a half I can see many of those problems being because of poor handling, but not all.
Both the dealer and Tokai should be held responsible for it. Really what it amounts to is simply sending it back for a refund or replacement, no big deal. I don't think Tokia should be roasted for it at all, I mean things happen, but let's be realistic.
Both the dealer and Tokai should be held responsible for it. Really what it amounts to is simply sending it back for a refund or replacement, no big deal. I don't think Tokia should be roasted for it at all, I mean things happen, but let's be realistic.
supreme
Well-known member
I couldn't sleep because of this so here a long rant.
A few have suggested it is not new, but a used guitar that I got. It definitely was/is new, because it had/has no playing wear whatsoever. No scratches anywhere, no plectrum marks, no dings, no play wear on fretboard, no fading gold hardware, no wear on jack input, nothing that would even remotely imply it is a used guitar. It also had those plastic stuff covering the humbuckers, scratchplate, etc., some are still on it.
So the issues are not the result of play/use/etc. Not possible.
Second, a few suddenly started mentioning 1 and a half years after a certain "sceptical" person mentioned it. The serial says it is somewhere from 2005, not end 2004 like the 1 and a half year states.....on top of that it could be from half 2005. As guitarslinger has confirmed, the LC70/80 are still being imported from Japan and being produced.
But suppose it was built on 1 Jan 2005, so 1 years and 5 months (I have seen guitars which were built that early and even earlier in shops). It still would not explain the many flaws knowing it was never used as I explained above, again, no proof that it was played on, so it must have been in a storage.......a guitar that is just lying in a box for that amount of time does not let go off it's bindings, gets fretmarkers/cuts on fretboard, gets holes around the inlays, gets anamolies under a tuner, grows black dots and grey marks under the finish, gets a few cut marks on binding/around the cavaties, loses a large piece of finish around the strap button, etc..
Let's cut the crap, that wouldn't even hold a second in court. What happened is probably this, very simple:
- Japanese Tokai manufactured a guitar with many flaws....obviously.
- For whatever reason it passed the different factions within the Japanese factory, including Quality Control.
- After being examined it got OK-ed for sale and sent to a UK importer.
- UK importer (probably) examined the guitar, OK-ed it for sale and sent it to the shop.
- Shop owner (probably) examined the guitar, OK-ed it for sale and send it to me.
- I got the thing and find out it is a POS afterbirth.
Now, the 3 before me (Japanese factory, UK importer, UK shop) have all done something wrong. But if Tokai hadn't OK-ed this thing (which would have been the only right thing to do if you know your job) than it would have ended there. So yes, I blame Tokai FIRST, then the others, no matter what Tokai fanatics here say including saying it is a fake, not a Tokai, Chinese communists planted it into my hands to discredit the Japanese, CIA and Pentagon doctored these pictures, pink beings from planet Zonk beamed it through my chimney, whatever.
I am taking a day off and gonna drive a few hundred kilometers to nowhere now.
A few have suggested it is not new, but a used guitar that I got. It definitely was/is new, because it had/has no playing wear whatsoever. No scratches anywhere, no plectrum marks, no dings, no play wear on fretboard, no fading gold hardware, no wear on jack input, nothing that would even remotely imply it is a used guitar. It also had those plastic stuff covering the humbuckers, scratchplate, etc., some are still on it.
So the issues are not the result of play/use/etc. Not possible.
Second, a few suddenly started mentioning 1 and a half years after a certain "sceptical" person mentioned it. The serial says it is somewhere from 2005, not end 2004 like the 1 and a half year states.....on top of that it could be from half 2005. As guitarslinger has confirmed, the LC70/80 are still being imported from Japan and being produced.
But suppose it was built on 1 Jan 2005, so 1 years and 5 months (I have seen guitars which were built that early and even earlier in shops). It still would not explain the many flaws knowing it was never used as I explained above, again, no proof that it was played on, so it must have been in a storage.......a guitar that is just lying in a box for that amount of time does not let go off it's bindings, gets fretmarkers/cuts on fretboard, gets holes around the inlays, gets anamolies under a tuner, grows black dots and grey marks under the finish, gets a few cut marks on binding/around the cavaties, loses a large piece of finish around the strap button, etc..
Let's cut the crap, that wouldn't even hold a second in court. What happened is probably this, very simple:
- Japanese Tokai manufactured a guitar with many flaws....obviously.
- For whatever reason it passed the different factions within the Japanese factory, including Quality Control.
- After being examined it got OK-ed for sale and sent to a UK importer.
- UK importer (probably) examined the guitar, OK-ed it for sale and sent it to the shop.
- Shop owner (probably) examined the guitar, OK-ed it for sale and send it to me.
- I got the thing and find out it is a POS afterbirth.
Now, the 3 before me (Japanese factory, UK importer, UK shop) have all done something wrong. But if Tokai hadn't OK-ed this thing (which would have been the only right thing to do if you know your job) than it would have ended there. So yes, I blame Tokai FIRST, then the others, no matter what Tokai fanatics here say including saying it is a fake, not a Tokai, Chinese communists planted it into my hands to discredit the Japanese, CIA and Pentagon doctored these pictures, pink beings from planet Zonk beamed it through my chimney, whatever.
I am taking a day off and gonna drive a few hundred kilometers to nowhere now.
Forgive me for not sifting through 3 pages of posts...but is there a reason why you cannot return this guitar? This not at all typical from what I have seen of Tokai. Mistakes happen. Return the guitar and find another (non-Tokai if you like).
Don't lose sleep over this nonsense.
Don't lose sleep over this nonsense.
Amo
Well-known member
Hello chaps,
My 2p worth...
As far as i can see its the dealers fault.
Every maker, in any industry, makes mistakes at some time and any dealer that dosent check his stock to make sure that what he's selling is fit for purpose isnt worth buying from.
That binding looks to me like its split open due to something like humidity and the fretting issues should have been sorted by the dealer with a decent setup and if that was my guitar I'd take it/send it back and demand either a replacement or a refund
My new ES120 (
) is, in 29 years of guitar playing the best instrument Ive ever played and the build quality and playabilty straight out of the box is just about flawless
Supreme, one thing you can bet your bottom dollar on is that not every guitar Tokai makes is a pile of crap and I hope if you get another it'll make you as happy I am with mine
Moral of the story...as far as i'm concerned
Try before you buy, and if you cant make sure you ask the dealer ALOT of questions
My 2p worth...
As far as i can see its the dealers fault.
Every maker, in any industry, makes mistakes at some time and any dealer that dosent check his stock to make sure that what he's selling is fit for purpose isnt worth buying from.
That binding looks to me like its split open due to something like humidity and the fretting issues should have been sorted by the dealer with a decent setup and if that was my guitar I'd take it/send it back and demand either a replacement or a refund
My new ES120 (
) is, in 29 years of guitar playing the best instrument Ive ever played and the build quality and playabilty straight out of the box is just about flawlessSupreme, one thing you can bet your bottom dollar on is that not every guitar Tokai makes is a pile of crap and I hope if you get another it'll make you as happy I am with mine
Moral of the story...as far as i'm concerned
Try before you buy, and if you cant make sure you ask the dealer ALOT of questions
Reading carefully through all this and having the same experience of being sold a dud Tokai, I would like to make a few points.
The ultimate responsibility for quality control is the factory, then the distributor and then the dealer regardless of the name on the headstock. Brand loyalty seems to be a big issue with Tokai owners, when I criticised the many poorly made MIK Tokais on here some people took offence at the amount of bad MIKs there are about. I never generalised in my statement, I provided photos of over 10 MIK Tokai's and looked at another 12. In total out of approx 50 MIK Tokai's over 50% of them were sub-standard.
There are currently three UK dealers selling MIK Tokai's on ebay and one admitted the build quality on ALL of their MIK stock is poor, hence why they are on ebay.
My experience of MIJ Tokai's has been positive and I am surprised to see a MIJ this bad.
BUT
My local dealer sells Gibson and Epi's and kindly let me look at his Guitars knowing I wanted to check build quality. All his stock were fantastic examples of pure quality including the Epi's. He was going to stock Tokai last year and was sent so many poorly made Tokai guitars through that he dropped the idea and stuck with Gibson. Since dealing with Gibson for the past 20 years he has only had to return one SG.
Tokai owners think there guitars are the best
Gibson owners think there guitars are the best
Fender owners think there guitars are the best
I have no brand loyalty, I like them all. But from my ltd experience so far I would say Gibson has the edge.
Why do I buy Tokai then ? because I cannot afford a Gibson and most Tokai owners have told me the same. How well do Tokais' original guitars sell ? Or is everyone wanting a Les Paul copy ?
The ultimate responsibility for quality control is the factory, then the distributor and then the dealer regardless of the name on the headstock. Brand loyalty seems to be a big issue with Tokai owners, when I criticised the many poorly made MIK Tokais on here some people took offence at the amount of bad MIKs there are about. I never generalised in my statement, I provided photos of over 10 MIK Tokai's and looked at another 12. In total out of approx 50 MIK Tokai's over 50% of them were sub-standard.
There are currently three UK dealers selling MIK Tokai's on ebay and one admitted the build quality on ALL of their MIK stock is poor, hence why they are on ebay.
My experience of MIJ Tokai's has been positive and I am surprised to see a MIJ this bad.
BUT
My local dealer sells Gibson and Epi's and kindly let me look at his Guitars knowing I wanted to check build quality. All his stock were fantastic examples of pure quality including the Epi's. He was going to stock Tokai last year and was sent so many poorly made Tokai guitars through that he dropped the idea and stuck with Gibson. Since dealing with Gibson for the past 20 years he has only had to return one SG.
Tokai owners think there guitars are the best
Gibson owners think there guitars are the best
Fender owners think there guitars are the best
I have no brand loyalty, I like them all. But from my ltd experience so far I would say Gibson has the edge.
Why do I buy Tokai then ? because I cannot afford a Gibson and most Tokai owners have told me the same. How well do Tokais' original guitars sell ? Or is everyone wanting a Les Paul copy ?
Walnut said:
Well, I don't agree with you, a few years back I tried a bunch of new Gibsons and I was really disappointed. The store had a nice looking LP DC I was interested in but that guitar unfortunately was one of the worst I've ever tried. The neck/fingerboard was terrible, I was offered the guitar at half of the asking price but I didn't buy it anyway. I tried a few others as well but none of them were as good as they should be considering the price. Instead of the LP DC I imported a cheap Jim Reed DC lookalike from Italy and it was a far better guitar than the Gibson!
Mike
OrvilleBoy
Well-known member
yeah the most important thing is u get back what u deserve!!!! good luck...
judging Tokai as a shoddy company based on this one guitar would be unfair, ofcourse, coz they make awesome guitars!!!
but being angry at Tokai for the way they made this ONE particular guitar would be fair... u take resposiblity for what u do, right??? u're only as good as your last guitar???
besides, u paid for the thing, i understand if u go nuts when everyone else is calm about it.
judging Tokai as a shoddy company based on this one guitar would be unfair, ofcourse, coz they make awesome guitars!!!
but being angry at Tokai for the way they made this ONE particular guitar would be fair... u take resposiblity for what u do, right??? u're only as good as your last guitar???
besides, u paid for the thing, i understand if u go nuts when everyone else is calm about it.
OrvilleBoy said:
I agree.
But the reason why I support this poster is because it is not based on one guitar. It is based on quite a few.
This is not an isolated incident, there are many people out there who don't even know about the Tokai forums who have had quality issues with Tokai's. I have come across people who thought Tokai were a third rate company based in China. Of course I had to put them right and preach the good word of Tokai.
But the problem with a Tokai based forum is a 'Tokai thinking mindset' , This same issue on a general guitar based forum would provide a much balanced debate without the loyalty issues.
How many people have a Tokai sitting next to a Gibson in percentage of Tokai ownership. I bet it is less then 10%. Why don't we ask those peoples opinions ?
Tokai owners don't always have to be on the defensive. Tokai is a brand that says quality, with posts like these we should find out what is going wrong to make sure Tokai don't slip on quality issues ,rather then claim Tokai are the biggest thing since sliced bread.
Once again I ask " Do Tokai original guitars sell as well as the Les Paul copy's ?
OrvilleBoy
Well-known member
mmm true... thanks for the info, bit disappointing to hear bout Tokais seen as third rate... i only knew of them this year and have had fantastic feelings for them
then again, they SELL, we BUY, they make PROFIT... we've every right as buyers to demand their best effort (within reason... every guitar has a glitch, right?) i agree with u 100% on product loyalty
my judgement on Tokais are based predominately on this forum so to me they are smashing awesome guitars. besides, i've only seen like 10 Tokais in total in real life, and they're all great.
i think it's natural for people to be defensive, especially when they have such devotion for Tokai. i've got two Orvilles and to me they're the best guitars ever. they're not even ObGs, but if someone comes along and calls my guitar inferior to ObGs, i'd feel awful... cant explain why
but yeah if u put ur name on something... u put ur reputation on it too... and it should then be left to the judgement of the public.. that how companies improve their standards, right? the more unreasonable defenders they have, the sloppier they get?? i wonder if this applies to 'that' company
if anyone from Tokai is reading... c'mon folks, lets not let anyone down!
then again, they SELL, we BUY, they make PROFIT... we've every right as buyers to demand their best effort (within reason... every guitar has a glitch, right?) i agree with u 100% on product loyalty
my judgement on Tokais are based predominately on this forum so to me they are smashing awesome guitars. besides, i've only seen like 10 Tokais in total in real life, and they're all great.
i think it's natural for people to be defensive, especially when they have such devotion for Tokai. i've got two Orvilles and to me they're the best guitars ever. they're not even ObGs, but if someone comes along and calls my guitar inferior to ObGs, i'd feel awful... cant explain why
but yeah if u put ur name on something... u put ur reputation on it too... and it should then be left to the judgement of the public.. that how companies improve their standards, right? the more unreasonable defenders they have, the sloppier they get?? i wonder if this applies to 'that' company
if anyone from Tokai is reading... c'mon folks, lets not let anyone down!
Paladin2019
Well-known member
supreme said:
Not worth it mate. Just stop worrying about who's fault it is and get an exchange/refund. Once you're playing a good guitar this will all be nothing but a bad dream - brand loyalty be damned.
joukov
Well-known member
Maybe Supreme's guitar left the factory as third rate guitar to be sold as a 3rd rate guitar and maybe the store owner ordered it among others straight from Japan?
This year I've bought Fender '95 Jimmie Vaughan Tex-Mex Strat, Tokai Breezy Sound '84 Tele and '03 Gibson Les Paul Classic and they are all great. You just gotta be sure to see and play the guitar before you spend a lot of money on it. If that is not possible then anything can happen if you are not sure of the seller.
This year I've bought Fender '95 Jimmie Vaughan Tex-Mex Strat, Tokai Breezy Sound '84 Tele and '03 Gibson Les Paul Classic and they are all great. You just gotta be sure to see and play the guitar before you spend a lot of money on it. If that is not possible then anything can happen if you are not sure of the seller.
Okay, we are Tokai lovers here, yes?
However, it would seem that in this instance Tokai made a sub-standard instrument and failed to stop it reaching a retailer. They can be blamed for this.
The dealer then not only failed to do his duty and return the instrument but he then actively talked it up to his customer, claiming it played well, etc. That is especially appalling.
Now, we often refer to sloppy Gibson quality control and rarely do we add the footnote "...but the retailer should have sorted it out" so I don't think it's fair to leave Tokai out of the equation. Mistakes happen and if your name is on the headstock you will be judged accordingly!
However, those mistakes seem to happen mercifully infrequently with Tokai based on our combined experiences. And if we can refer to our favourite name to drop in such an instance, a big Gibson dealer I know had to return 20 out of 24 LPs for QC control issues; I mention this to counter the suggestion that Gibson's QC isn't actually that bad, as my opinion (and I like to think I'm fair-minded) is that it is.
To conclude, then...Tokai made a bad guitar in this case and the supply chain (as well as Tokai themselves) failed to protect the customer. No-one is innocent (apart from the customer)! However, a good Tokai is still a thing of joy and fortunately most of them fall into this category.
Good luck to Supreme in sorting this out. We don't help Tokai's reputation by burying our heads in the sand and denying that they make mistakes.
However, it would seem that in this instance Tokai made a sub-standard instrument and failed to stop it reaching a retailer. They can be blamed for this.
The dealer then not only failed to do his duty and return the instrument but he then actively talked it up to his customer, claiming it played well, etc. That is especially appalling.
Now, we often refer to sloppy Gibson quality control and rarely do we add the footnote "...but the retailer should have sorted it out" so I don't think it's fair to leave Tokai out of the equation. Mistakes happen and if your name is on the headstock you will be judged accordingly!
However, those mistakes seem to happen mercifully infrequently with Tokai based on our combined experiences. And if we can refer to our favourite name to drop in such an instance, a big Gibson dealer I know had to return 20 out of 24 LPs for QC control issues; I mention this to counter the suggestion that Gibson's QC isn't actually that bad, as my opinion (and I like to think I'm fair-minded) is that it is.
To conclude, then...Tokai made a bad guitar in this case and the supply chain (as well as Tokai themselves) failed to protect the customer. No-one is innocent (apart from the customer)! However, a good Tokai is still a thing of joy and fortunately most of them fall into this category.
Good luck to Supreme in sorting this out. We don't help Tokai's reputation by burying our heads in the sand and denying that they make mistakes.
tudor
Well-known member
Supreme - the pics are shocking !!!!
I'm not an "Old Man" of this forum, started in March at least ... There was something that attraced me to join the forum ...
I guess I saw the pride of the members to be a group of "Outlaws" in the jungle of the LP copies, because the guitars they were representing have been built on the highest level comparable or even better than the guitars with the big "G".
Not everybody knows the Tokai Quality Standards, there are some Senior Members who have a better background knowledge about the company than others.
... and outside this "tokai-community" - the guitars are sometimes seen as 3rd-way-Chinese-production.
But that's exactly the point: There's a handful of people who hide their secrets with a smile in their faces knowing what kind of gem they have! They are proud without being too fanatic - a little bit perhaps! :wink:
They do not need badly to struggle with everyone who`s attacking their guitars and quality and service and .... They will stay cool exactly knowing what they are possessing and exactly knowing that at the end of the day they will overcome! :wink:
And there is a big Company in the background who provides the best Standards available!
Long rant - at that point I`m expecting a big reaction of the company on supremes bad luck!
Although the dealer is the last link of the chain ... the Company cannot tolerate this! (Mercedes or BMW wouldn't do it as well if one of their customers would have such massive complaints).
So - let's wait for the company's reaction! If they are handling supreme's complaint as I expect them to do and what would suit well to a company with such a reputation ...
... I would be really proud at all!
Roger
I'm not an "Old Man" of this forum, started in March at least ... There was something that attraced me to join the forum ...
I guess I saw the pride of the members to be a group of "Outlaws" in the jungle of the LP copies, because the guitars they were representing have been built on the highest level comparable or even better than the guitars with the big "G".
Not everybody knows the Tokai Quality Standards, there are some Senior Members who have a better background knowledge about the company than others.
... and outside this "tokai-community" - the guitars are sometimes seen as 3rd-way-Chinese-production.
But that's exactly the point: There's a handful of people who hide their secrets with a smile in their faces knowing what kind of gem they have! They are proud without being too fanatic - a little bit perhaps! :wink:
They do not need badly to struggle with everyone who`s attacking their guitars and quality and service and .... They will stay cool exactly knowing what they are possessing and exactly knowing that at the end of the day they will overcome! :wink:
And there is a big Company in the background who provides the best Standards available!
Long rant - at that point I`m expecting a big reaction of the company on supremes bad luck!
Although the dealer is the last link of the chain ... the Company cannot tolerate this! (Mercedes or BMW wouldn't do it as well if one of their customers would have such massive complaints).
So - let's wait for the company's reaction! If they are handling supreme's complaint as I expect them to do and what would suit well to a company with such a reputation ...
... I would be really proud at all!
Roger
Very interesting read.
In my opinion (I'm sure you were all just waiting for little ol' me to get involved :wink: ) its a number of peoples fault apart from Supreme's. Buying something without seeing it is always risky but it should be fine if the product is described accurately. (I'm sure thats a legal requirement).
Supreme, hopefully it'll get sorted. If you were offered another Tokai to replace it would you consider it? Hopefully you'd get to see what they can really do then.
In my opinion (I'm sure you were all just waiting for little ol' me to get involved :wink: ) its a number of peoples fault apart from Supreme's. Buying something without seeing it is always risky but it should be fine if the product is described accurately. (I'm sure thats a legal requirement).
Supreme, hopefully it'll get sorted. If you were offered another Tokai to replace it would you consider it? Hopefully you'd get to see what they can really do then.
supreme
Well-known member
Update.
The shop talked with Bob from Tokai UK and they agreed to swap for a Goldtop (LS-75 I assume). I had told Bob that if they could not find a Custom, a Goldtop would be OK as a last resort. It is cheaper than a Custom so I asked the shop for a set of strings, strap and speedknobs to even it......but like I told Bob, I prefer a Custom though, that was my initial goal.
And I want detailed pics first and then a detailed review, because at the moment MIJ Tokai equals mediocre POS to me.
The shop talked with Bob from Tokai UK and they agreed to swap for a Goldtop (LS-75 I assume). I had told Bob that if they could not find a Custom, a Goldtop would be OK as a last resort. It is cheaper than a Custom so I asked the shop for a set of strings, strap and speedknobs to even it......but like I told Bob, I prefer a Custom though, that was my initial goal.
And I want detailed pics first and then a detailed review, because at the moment MIJ Tokai equals mediocre POS to me.
orvilleowner
Well-known member
Good Luck to you Supreme.
signed,
orvilleowner
(not a Tokai owner)
signed,
orvilleowner
(not a Tokai owner)
QuattroSte
Well-known member
It seems to me you got what we in Ireland call "Ripped Off". The shop you bought it from is to blame. There is no way in hell that they thought that that guitar was OK or up to quality to sell. You are in a different country and they tried to pull a fast one to see if they could get away with it.
It should be a lesson to us all, but I do believe Tokai.co.uk have some responsibility in ensuring you get either your money back or a "proper" replacement guitar of higher value.
The question about how it got through Tokai's QC is interesting but I doubt we will ever find out. For all we know a disgruntled worker could have been "moving" the failed QC products and one fell off the cart
It should be a lesson to us all, but I do believe Tokai.co.uk have some responsibility in ensuring you get either your money back or a "proper" replacement guitar of higher value.
The question about how it got through Tokai's QC is interesting but I doubt we will ever find out. For all we know a disgruntled worker could have been "moving" the failed QC products and one fell off the cart
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