It arrived in 2 days! Sweet!

[leadguitar_323]

That's interesting because recently on rinkya I saw a double cut greco BG (kind of fenderish style) model with single coils that were listed as dry on the pickup covers. What year is that?

Actually now that you mention it, i have seen "emg" style pickups with "DRY" on the black covers as well, they weren't active, they just had black covers.

I was sent those pics from Japan but they look like early Mint Collection catalogue layout. 1982

Mick

 

[soundcreation]

Perhaps by 82 they decided that the name "Dry" carried some weight with buyers and took advantage of that by naming new pickups Dry? Wouldn't be the first time a company cashed in on something like that.

 

[leadguitar_323]

I thinik i mentioned it somewhere else but these were all just pickups in those days, they started to gain a reputation when westerners started buying these guitars quite a few years later, These were all Japan market only guitars. Somethings Japanese we will never know because factory documentation wasn't that good. I know guys that have bought Japanese guitars in the 80's that didn't even try the stock pickups, changed them out to their favorites only to learn later that the Japanese pickups are quite good and put them back in, i have even done this myself. Its the same with a lot of the guitars from that era, they were dirt cheap and once getting exposure to the western markets,went through the roof price wise because everyone started to realise how good they were.
Ask some of the guys on here what they paid for their high end Japanese guitars in the 80'5 or 90's, only a fraction of what they are worth now.
It wasthe same for the original PAF's from Gibson, they were cheap as chips for 20-30 years then all of a sudden they became highly collectible.

Mick

 

[Koubayashi]

I thinik i mentioned it somewhere else but these were all just pickups in those days, they started to gain a reputation when westerners started buying these guitars quite a few years later, These were all Japan market only guitars. Somethings Japanese we will never know because factory documentation wasn't that good. I know guys that have bought Japanese guitars in the 80's that didn't even try the stock pickups, changed them out to their favorites only to learn later that the Japanese pickups are quite good and put them back in, i have even done this myself. Its the same with a lot of the guitars from that era, they were dirt cheap and once getting exposure to the western markets,went through the roof price wise because everyone started to realise how good they were.
Ask some of the guys on here what they paid for their high end Japanese guitars in the 80'5 or 90's, only a fraction of what they are worth now.
It wasthe same for the original PAF's from Gibson, they were cheap as chips for 20-30 years then all of a sudden they became highly collectible.

Mick

I paid about 400$ for my first EGF1800 and about 600$ for my JV 62-115.
Those I bought from shops about 6 years ago

But I think the hype will cool down.
They have pretty much reached the top.
Next step is a Gibson R-series and they have solid flametops!!!
I prefer solid flametops

 

[leadguitar_323]

I thinik i mentioned it somewhere else but these were all just pickups in those days, they started to gain a reputation when westerners started buying these guitars quite a few years later, These were all Japan market only guitars. Somethings Japanese we will never know because factory documentation wasn't that good. I know guys that have bought Japanese guitars in the 80's that didn't even try the stock pickups, changed them out to their favorites only to learn later that the Japanese pickups are quite good and put them back in, i have even done this myself. Its the same with a lot of the guitars from that era, they were dirt cheap and once getting exposure to the western markets,went through the roof price wise because everyone started to realise how good they were.
Ask some of the guys on here what they paid for their high end Japanese guitars in the 80'5 or 90's, only a fraction of what they are worth now.
It wasthe same for the original PAF's from Gibson, they were cheap as chips for 20-30 years then all of a sudden they became highly collectible.

Mick

I paid about 400$ for my first EGF1800 and about 600$ for my JV 62-115.
Those I bought from shops about 6 years ago

But I think the hype will cool down.
They have pretty much reached the top.
Next step is a Gibson R-series and they have solid flametops!!!
I prefer solid flametops

Thats exactly my point, these were all just guitars in those days, no hype, no special dry z's, they were just Japanese guitars with Japanese pickups, all the hype is a recent thing. So there was no reason for anyone to complain that in 1980, their guitar didn't have dry z's because they were just another Japanese pickup, its the westerners 20-30 years later that created all the hype.

Mick

 

[Anonymous]

Somethings Japanese we will never know because factory documentation wasn't that good.

It's a shame that it was the Japanese, not the Germans, who made all the fine guitars. If the Germans had made them, the documentation would all be spot-on. But there would be no need for this forum!

Mike

 

[greco_burst]

I found Custom for sale on one of the Japanese guitar sites. After lurking through these threads to find out more, since the seller doesn't provide pickup pictures, I'm curious about something.

The person who claims to have seen 6 Customs with unmarked Dry Z pickups is the SAME person who sold the guitar with unmarked Dry Zs. Not to insult anyone, but that's not a big confidence builder. Can you tell me about those 6 guitars and provide pictures of the cavitys so we can compare?

Also, if a pickup is unmarked, how can be positively identified as a Dry Z? That sort of doesn't make sense to me.

It looks like late 81 Customs may sometimes come with unmarked pickups, but that's all that seems to be proven, not what the pickups actually are.

Sorry if I am out of line. But it seems the guitar i want may be worth $500-$600 more if pickups are Dry Z than if not, correct?

I understand your question, it is not 'sometimes' late 1981 EG1000C that have unmarked pickups, which should be Dry Z, it is that ALL late EG1000C I have seen from 1981 DON'T have marked pickups on the back. The baseplates are the same as Dry Z. And if customers where getting a guitar that is supposed to have Dry Z pickups as advertised, then, if they don't, do you think they are going to be happy? that is not confidence building.

The only proof is to pull one of those pickups apart (or both) and get them tested, But who likes to do that? It certainly will put a stop to all this, particularly if the pickups are found to have the same Alnico grade as found in Dry Z

regards,
Mick

 

[leadguitar_323]

f they don't, do you think they are going to be happy? that is not confidence building.

This is totally irrelevant as these guitars had basically no reputation in those days, as i said before most serious Japanese muso's back then were into and to a large degree today, were into American guitars like Jackson, BC Rich and Gibson and Fender, these Greco's were all just more Japanese guitars. Virtually no one in those days rated those pickups at all and they have only become popular in recent times and mainly by westerners so that theory holds no weight at all. I had a few nice Aria's in the early eighties that i bought for next to nothing, they are worth more now than they were then, same thing with the Dryz's, they were just "another Japanese pickup" and they were advertised as just "dry" in the catalogues at that time not "Dry Z", back then. Most buyers would not have had a clue that these pickups would turn out to be "classics" Read Koubayashi's post, it says it all.

Mick

 

[greco_burst]

f they don't, do you think they are going to be happy? that is not confidence building.

This is totally irrelevant as these guitars had basically no reputation in those days, as i said before most serious Japanese muso's back then were into and to a large degree today, were into American guitars like Jackson, BC Rich and Gibson and Fender, these Greco's were all just more Japanese guitars. Virtually no one in those days rated those pickups at all and they have only become popular in recent times and mainly by westerners so that theory holds no weight at all. I had a few nice Aria's in the early eighties that i bought for next to nothing, they are worth more now than they were then, same thing with the Dryz's, they were just "another Japanese pickup" and they were advertised as just "dry" in the catalogues at that time not "Dry Z", back then. Most buyers would not have had a clue that these pickups would turn out to be "classics" Read Koubayashi's post, it says it all.

Mick

Who is talking about hype or whatever?
Not me!
I am talking about customers back then buying a guitar that is what is it is as advertised!!! not something that is maybe, could be, should be, or any of that crap, someone buys a guitar for what is high end, they would expect high end, so don't tell me about that being irrelevant!
Sorry for sounding 'rough' but I am not talking about that.

I am not really arguing, I am just saying my point is what someone is actually buying, that is all. And yes, there is hype and no hype etc, and you are correct that today they are highly collectable etc etc....
regards,
Mick

 

[leadguitar_323]

Who is talking about hype or whatever?
Not me!
I am talking about customers back then buying a guitar that is what is it is as advertised!!! not something that is maybe, could be, should be, or any of that crap, someone buys a guitar for what is high end, they would expect high end, so don't tell me about that being irrelevant!
Sorry for sounding 'rough' but I am not talking about that.

You totally miss the point, The advertising says "dry" not "dryZ" and most people have no idea about electronics or whats in a guitar. When i go to a music shop i usually know heaps more about their stock than they do and they are the guys selling these guitars. Don't assume most people know of the make up of any instrument, its just not true. These were also Mid range guitars back then as the Yen was worth less than half of what it is now , so as far as comparing cost they may as well been 500's not 1000's.
I am just rationalizing your argument as it really isn't relevant at that time. Look around, there are a lot of unmarked pickups in guitars and how the hell are you ever going to know what they are unless you know exactly who made them. I have seen no concrete proof that anything said in favour of those pickups identifies them as DryZ's. I have not said they are not, i just don't buy your argument, its based on their reputation and that didn't exist back then.

Mick

 

[soundcreation]

The problem with your logic Lead is that you're not providing an answer. So what do YOU think they are?

A few things.

Your "they were just japanese pickups back then" argument doesn't hold much water because greco listed the various pickups for sale at different prices. The dry Z's were 20000 yen and the others were cheaper. So obviously greco knew some were better than others. And I'd bet the customers did too...knowing they'd have to pay more for dry Z's even in 1980.

I wouldn't call a 1000 mid range. There are only 2 models above it and about 15 below it. A 1000C would cost 225000 yen today. Not mid range by any stretch. So sorry but that argument fails.

Your "they only say Dry" argument doesn't make any sense because your trying to use that to imply that they could be something else. But by your own logic if they say "dry" then they have to be dry something right? In late 81 what are the "dry" options? Dry Z. And MAYBE some early Dry 82's.

You're not saying they are and you're not saying they aren't. But you must have an opinion. It once again comes down to this...You can either believe that Greco was ripping people off by putting cheaper pickups in the guitars and not giving a sh.t about what they advertised or that the pickups are Dry something and in all probability Dry Z based on physical characteristics.

So what do YOU believe?

 

[Si Pie]

I think you should just be happy they sound good, aside from resale value the Dry Z is just a name. We're guitar players (well I try!) not antique dealers.

Just my friendly two pence worth.

 

[leadguitar_323]

Sorry mate but you can't compare prices with today, for instance 225000 yen doesn't get you a guitar with multi piece backs, back then it was the equivalent of just under 500 US, not high end at all and like i said, the majority of people don't know anything about guitars, even less so then as we didn't have these forums and internet to inform the masses. It is clearly a transitional guitar and the people building Greco at the time were already using pickups from different manufacturers, don't get me wrong i think they are great guitars and i own some but $500 US doesn't make it "high end".
Your absolutely right, i am not giving an answer but i am trying to rationalise some of the misconceptions being forwarded here. Most of what has been said is based on what we know now, not what was actually going on then. These were not high end, the 1800 were and the 1200 were mid range, now we know that they are exceptionally well made guitars but i remember clearly being looked down on for owning "Japanese" guitars in the eighties when everyone was still singing the praises of the US manufacturers.
Remember these people buying these guitars were buying the "model" not the pickups. I have spoken at length with my Japanese contacts about these Japanese LP models and most are still very surprised at the response to these guitars in recent years because there were 1000's of these just lying in pawn shops and such for a very long time, read Koubayashi's post, his 1800 cost him not much at all and 6 or 7 years later you virtually can't buy one at all, before this they couldn't give them away. I can guarantee you that no one in 1981 was going WOW these pickups are awesome and the best thing since sliced bread, if that was the case you would have been paying ridiculous prices for the last 30 years and this is not the case, they were 50 USD pickups in those days, not high end either. My opinion is that you may never know and my experience with MIJ guitars tells me that there were lots of things done that never made it into the catalogues and thats a fact. The simple matter is that there is just as much chance that they are "something else" and while that may surprise you it doesn't surprise me at all and many others as well. I think your statement that Greco was "ripping everyone off" is laughable simply because they would have used something else that they thought was up to the mark and if this is what happened it wouldn't surprise me at all, there was already using pickups from Fujigen in their guitars at this time so it is absolutely possible, i haven't used Dry z"s but i can tell you that the Dry 1982's in the right guitar are awesome and cost the same as Dry Z's. The simple fact that Greco were already using Fujigen pickups adds weight to what i have said. And remember Greco wasn't a company , it was a brand and their guitars were made by at least 3 different companies including Tokai. I have posted enough facts on this subject and there are others here that know exactly what i am talking about. I know you want them to be Dry Z's but there is a chance they are not and you may never know for sure. Higher model Grecos had Dry 1982,s as well. Did you ever own Japanese guitars in the 80's, i did and i know plenty of others that did as well, they were cheap 2nd hand and even harder to re sell and if you traded them in they were worth even less, thats why i kept mine for years. You all need to remember we are talking early 80's here, the Yen was worth 50%+ less which made most of these guitars cheap, appreciation of these guitars is a recent thing.
Tell me why that these transitional models are the only ones without stickers, especially if you think these pickups were such an important feature, you see all i am doing is exploring the possibilities with what we know rather than speculate on what we don't.

Mick

 

[soundcreation]

Back then real gibsons were a grand. What's your point? Yes japanese manufacturing cost less back then but that has nothing to do with the quality of the instrument. Mine is one piece back. Don't know what you're talking about there. And I believe real gibsons were giving pancake bodied poly coated garbage for your 1980 1000 dollars. So which is high end? The name or how the guitar is built? And yes you can adjust for inflation and it would be a 225000 yen guitar today.

It's not transitional because greco never had anything labeled "transitional super real". Your the only one on this site I've ever seen who talks junk about "transitional this and that". I think you've made the term "Transitional model" up yourself and have convinced yourself that it is a legitimate term used by everyone including greco. Once again go check the catalog from 81 and read what it says on the truss rod cover of those guitars.


Just because people you knew didn't know any better doesn't make them "mid range guitars". I could show you people right now who would say a navigator is inferior to a gibson just because it doesn't say gibson on the headstock. So really your whole argument is again nonsensical. And what makes you think it's any different in Japan even now? People there still buy into the name on the headstock and "MIA". The Japanese can be just as ignorant of the quality of their own gear as westerners.

By you're very own logic a real gibson 59 burst must have been "mid range at best" because in the early 80's you could find them lying around pawnshops for less than a grand.....LOL. Because there was a time where people weren't saying the real bloody thing was in your words "WOW .... the best thing since sliced bread"..both as guitars and original PAFs. So were original Gibsons just average or maybe was it that people just weren't paying attention and would have rather bought a "superior" jackson?

You are right that Japanese makers did tons of different things that made didn't make it into catalogs. So that's why I try to use process of elimination to figure out what they are.

You say greco would have used "what was up to the mark" as a replacement for what they said was supposed to be in the guitar. OK what then? The question you keep avoiding giving an answer about. What pickups were made that look exactly like Dry Z's but aren't? Are you ever going to answer this one question? Or are you going to keep avoiding it?

You're right that I would like them to be dry Z's. But I am also more than logical enough to accept that they aren't given decent evidence. Suggest something more logical than my argument. Go to page one, look at the pictures of my pickups and tell me what they might be. Cause I've looked at the backs of ducans, gibsons, d'marzzio's other greco's etc...and none of them look like that. Only the pics of Dry Z's I've seen. To me this is much more solid than saying ... "well greco were using all kinds of parts on all kinds of guitars so those probably aren't Dry Z's".

I don't know what it is with you dude. I think your one of those people who can't handle someone else having something you would like. And you look for any excuse to cast doubt to make yourself feel better. So I'll make you feel better.....Yes my pickups might NOT be Dry Z's. But I'll still wait for you to provide some better proof than just speculation.

 

[leadguitar_323]

Back then real gibsons were a grand. What's your point? Yes japanese manufacturing cost less back then but that has nothing to do with the quality of the instrument. Mine is one piece back. Don't know what you're talking about there. And I believe real gibsons were giving pancake bodied poly coated garbage for your 1980 1000 dollars. So which is high end? The name or how the guitar is built? And yes you can adjust for inflation and it would be a 225000 yen guitar today.

It's not transitional because greco never had anything labeled "transitional super real". Your the only one on this site I've ever seen who talks junk about "transitional this and that". I think you've made the term "Transitional model" up yourself and have convinced yourself that it is a legitimate term used by everyone including greco. Once again go check the catalog from 81 and read what it says on the truss rod cover of those guitars.


Just because people you knew didn't know any better doesn't make them "mid range guitars". I could show you people right now who would say a navigator is inferior to a gibson just because it doesn't say gibson on the headstock. So really your whole argument is again nonsensical. And what makes you think it's any different in Japan even now? People there still buy into the name on the headstock and "MIA". The Japanese can be just as ignorant of the quality of their own gear as westerners.

By you're very own logic a real gibson 59 burst must have been "mid range at best" because in the early 80's you could find them lying around pawnshops for less than a grand.....LOL. Because there was a time where people weren't saying the real bloody thing was in your words "WOW .... the best thing since sliced bread"..both as guitars and original PAFs. So were original Gibsons just average or maybe was it that people just weren't paying attention and would have rather bought a "superior" jackson?

You are right that Japanese makers did tons of different things that made didn't make it into catalogs. So that's why I try to use process of elimination to figure out what they are.

You say greco would have used "what was up to the mark" as a replacement for what they said was supposed to be in the guitar. OK what then? The question you keep avoiding giving an answer about. What pickups were made that look exactly like Dry Z's but aren't? Are you ever going to answer this one question? Or are you going to keep avoiding it?

You're right that I would like them to be dry Z's. But I am also more than logical enough to accept that they aren't given decent evidence. Suggest something more logical than my argument. Go to page one, look at the pictures of my pickups and tell me what they might be. Cause I've looked at the backs of ducans, gibsons, d'marzzio's other greco's etc...and none of them look like that. Only the pics of Dry Z's I've seen. To me this is much more solid than saying ... "well greco were using all kinds of parts on all kinds of guitars so those probably aren't Dry Z's".

I don't know what it is with you dude. I think your one of those people who can't handle someone else having something you would like. And you look for any excuse to cast doubt to make yourself feel better. So I'll make you feel better.....Yes my pickups might NOT be Dry Z's. But I'll still wait for you to provide some better proof than just speculation.

1 your lucky with a 1 piece back if that is what it is because catalogue says 2 piece. That rubbish about the "225000" price is CRAP and it doesn't work like that, look at what you get these days for that money.

2 You don't listen, it IS TRANSITIONAL and everyone here except you are aware of this, how do you think Super real necks ended up on Mint collection guitars from this era..!!!, do some reading, there's heaps of info here about that. It is common knowledge here, ask Japan strat, villager or MIJ vintage for starters. And yours has the Mint collection logo.... :roll: Tokai had a transitional period as well with the Springy's and Goldstars, why is that so hard to comprehend?

3 Ignorance on the part of the customer, not the manufacturer, and that is one of my points, most musicians know nothing about the instruments they play. There were plenty of crap early Gibbo's as well, these are mainly collectors guitars now, and their value has been pushed up once again by the Hype of the collectors. You are comparing second hand prices to new, putting words into my mouth won't help your cause.
You are using "process of elimination" , doesn't look like it, i have stated piles of facts here but because they don't suit your cause, they don't count.

4 Avoiding ..!! i don't know, you don't know, and everyone i have spoken too in Japan doesn't know, go back and read mate, we are discussing the possibilities here but you don't want to listen. You can discount everything i have said and i don't really care but what i know is what i know and it came from good sources over a fairly long time, 2 of the guys that buy for me in Japan are collectors as well and have a massive knowledge base.....you only speculate. I have also never said they aren't, just explored the possibilities.

5 Your last comments are laughable, 1 have a pile of Japanese LP's and 3 of mine are extremely rare and because of my contacts in Japan i know the luthier that made these special guitars, another reason i bought them.
Once again do a search and you will see, My 2 Tokai's are all Honduras mahogany, my LS180 is one of 6 made and my custom order gold top is a 1 off, no envy here buddy and i get excellent prices when i buy as well, My Greco RR-65 with Dry 1982's cost me 400 Aussie dollars shipped and it is a beauty, a 1 off as far as resonance goes and the pickups suit it perfectly. There are other members here that have seen my guitars and at the moment i have a Japanese collector trying to buy one back, once again, no envy here.. :roll:

Wait all you like for proof as you will probably never know unless you can find someone who was making these guitars back then because there is no set timeline on when different specs started appearing just a rough idea and once again this is the "transitional" period, like it or lump it, as this is well known. I have given you all the facts i know , they could be Dry Z and they may not be, if that upsets you then thats your problem as i am only telling you what is already known. I will just add, more than one company built Greco's and the build quality did change, going by your logic some of those guitars were better than others so by changing manufacturers and charging the same price they were "ripping people off". Hardly .....

Go back to the start, have a read and look at what i have pointed out about that period, you may not like it or believe it but i know what happened so do many others here.... Don't worry about my feelings mate if you had my guitars you would feel pretty bloody good about it, i definitely do....You believe what you want to believe.

Mick

 

[soundcreation]

LOL...I knew I could goad you into this. I knew you secretly don't even want to acknowledge my guitar as even a super real let alone the pickup situation. You are truly hilarious. So show me right here where it says "mint collection" on these guitars...or "transitional from..."

http://brochures.yokochou.com/guitar-and-amp/greco/1981/p0809.html

OH that's right you can't...cause it doesn't say it anywhere. LOL

But I on the other hand can show you where it says "SUPER REAL". It's so funny you have to turn this into a pissing contest. Once you make an allegation based on you're own opinion of what you would like to call them and I base my opinion on what the bloody things actually say on the bloody guitars. Hmmmm. Who's more logical? Oh and it has a late super real logo and the mint collection just copied it. See with your line of reasoning you can interpret it any way you like to fit your argument. Mine? Nope. Says super real. Is super real..simple as that.

You haven't stated any facts at all! Just you're opinions because of features YOU choose to focus on. And I'm not putting anything in your mouth, just following you're own faulty logic. It's truly unbelievable that you call what I'm doing speculating when you've offered nothing verifiable to support any of you're claims. Just your "good sources" in japan and your opinion. You're "piles of facts" backed up by nothing. No links, no pictures nothing...just your word.

And you're obviously not looking hard enough because I have been using logical arguments to deduce what the pickups might be. And YOU STILL avoid answering the question I posed. Because you have NOTHING. No reasonable answer to explain why my pickups look exactly like Dry Z's but aren't. I've already admitted several times they might not be but my conclusion still seems much more likely than yours considering you've offered nothing as an alternative. So why would I believe anything you say when the only thing you offer is "Greco was using whatever was around...". LAME logic dude. Show me some other pickups that look like that which aren't dry Z's and then maybe we can begin to have a reasonable discussion...but until then I'll just leave your line of reasoning up against mine and let other readers decide for themselves what they think the pickups might be.

 

[MIJvintage]

I understand your question, it is not 'sometimes' late 1981 EG1000C that have unmarked pickups, which should be Dry Z, it is that ALL late EG1000C I have seen from 1981 DON'T have marked pickups on the back. The baseplates are the same as Dry Z. And if customers where getting a guitar that is supposed to have Dry Z pickups as advertised, then, if they don't, do you think they are going to be happy? that is not confidence building.

The only proof is to pull one of those pickups apart (or both) and get them tested, But who likes to do that? It certainly will put a stop to all this, particularly if the pickups are found to have the same Alnico grade as found in Dry Z

regards,
Mick

I think your idea of pulling the pickup apart is very interesting, and possibly the only way of gaining the real truth.

Member japanstrat explains below how to test for the difference in ceramic vs. Alnico but is there a test to determine the grade of an Alnico magnet?

I don't know what the Double Trick magnets are but they are priced just below Dry pickups so I'd guess Alnico.

Alnico, Ceramic magnet test.

If the end of the magnet is exposed just put the probes on different locations on the exposed magnet end, otherwise remove (desolder) the pickup cover from the pickup and try to lift the pickup tape so the end of the magnet is visible and then use the probes at different locations on the end of the magnet.
Also you can try pushing the magnet out a bit with a screwdriver after loosening the 4 philips screws on the bottom plate and then push it back in and tighten the 4 screws after testing it but care is needed to not damage the pickup windings http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/barmagswap.htm

To tell the difference between Alnico and Ceramic magnets a simple test can be done with a ohm meter.


Take an ohm meter and touch the probes to the magnet.

Alnico is a metal, and you will see a very low resistance reading.

Ceramic is not a metal, and the resistance reading will be very, very high....if you get any reading whatsoever.

 

[Ozeshin]

WD Soundcreation...!!!
+1
We have our quota of smartarse shitstirrers round these parts and you just got this topic locked..!!!!