Help with identifying a Dry Z pickup

[MIJvintage]

I am curious, with the accolades heaped upon this axe in a previous thread, were there actually any photos of the pickup bases in the eBay listing?

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=70503&highlight=#70503

 

[wknight2]

That was the 1st point I mentioned in my previous thread, there were 7 pictures of the pickups posted to THIS topic (meaning the thread we are in now), but not one in the EBay ad.

The guitar was in super condition when I opened the case, hence the accolade. I mean, it looks like it was never played. From that standpoint I was really excited!

Never occurred to me to pull the pickups. Why would I? I took a pile of guitars including this one to the techs last week for setups. Looked at the pickups. No markings. Doh!

Measurements are lower than any measurement I am aware of. There was a post somewhere about Dry Zs being between 7.5 and 8.1 or something similar, these were 7.2

I am curious, with the accolades heaped upon this axe in a previous thread, were there actually any photos of the pickup bases in the eBay listing?

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=70503&highlight=#70503

 

[MIJvintage]

yeah, a listing for a guitar equipped with pickups with such a legendary reputation & with such a high cost, and without photos, is pretty much a Texas sized red flag, IMO

Personally, if I am interested in a guitar, even a lower to mid grade one, I will request photos of particular items, and especially if photos of particular items of interest are not already included in a listing

Ed, I was actually speaking of forum members in general & their accolades & their talking up the guitar, not your particular statement(s) concerning it

 

[wknight2]

If I asked for some close ups of the back, I would have seen it was a 3 piece and not a 1 piece as advertised. Yes, I learned a valuable lesson - always ask for more pictures no matter what The guitar was talked about in the forum so I thought there was no need.

I don't consider myself a total newb at this; it has been a humbling experience. But life is full of lessons

Regardless, most of the MIJ guitars I've picked up have been really great instruments. The hobby has grown outta control lol

 

[wknight2]

That reminds me Rich...you were right about Burnys being under-rated. The one I picked up a few weeks ago surprised me in how well it played and sounded, even with old strings on it!

 

[japanstrat]

Most of the Maxon pickups have a serial number including the lowest model pickups. These pickups are either Maxon pickups but with no serial number or Fujigen pickups with no sticker. I've seen that baseplate with the hole used on Maxon Greco pickups and on Fujigen Greco pickups. Maxon made the Dry Z pickups. At the end of 1981 there was a changeover from Maxon making the Greco pickups to Fujigen making the Greco pickups. The Maxon made pickups are Dry Z and the Fujigen made pickups are Dry 82. It's quite possible that during the Maxon to Fujigen changeover some Dry Z pickups were not stamped. The DC resistance varies and 7.2K is still right for a PAF like pickup. It's quite possible that these pickups aren't Dry Z pickups but they are still either Maxon or Fujigen made pickups so they would have to be either UD, U-1000, U-2000, PU, Dry Z pickups or the Fujigen equivalent Dry 82, Groovin, Screamin. The previous owner could have swapped the pickups but if they did then they swapped them for other Greco pickups. I had a 1979 Greco with 1977 Maxon pickups so someone swapped the pickups on that one.

http://www.fujigen.co.jp/history/

Fujigen Pickup Info translated

1981.11 Entry into production company internal of pickup.


And Fujigen got a CNC router in June 1981 so all the "Mint Collection" were made with a CNC router and most of the Super Reals were made in a more hands on way with no CNC router which is why they have different tenons and construction. The Mint Collection has a standard CNC routed long tenon and CNC routed body and neck parts and the Super Reals have a more hands on medium tenon and body and neck parts made with no CNC router.

1981.6 As a guitar manufacturer the worldwide beginning and NC Luther introduction.

So for the Mint Collection at the end of 1981 there was a pickup manufacturer change and a CNC router change as well and some strange things appear for a while during the Super Real to Mint Collection changeover.

 

[villager]

obviously those accolades in the previous post can only be based on the ebay description..ie DRY-Z and one piece back, if that was the case then this guitar woud have been very rare as normally 1000's only come in black or white with a 2 piece back....

as this now appears to have a 3 piece back and the PU's have no markings, the accolades for the guitar in the previous thread no longer apply.

 

[japanstrat]

Wknight2, here are some pickups to compare them to so make up your own mind as to what they are.

http://forum.japanaxe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=768

http://forum.japanaxe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1050

 

[wknight2]

Japanstrat, that's some great information on those links!

The possibility does exist that they are Dry Z or Dry 82. What sheds doubt on that is, someone pointed out the solder joints are not original, the seller had pictures of the pickups but did not post them on the ad, the back was stated to be 1 piece but was 3.

Bottom line is, if I put the guitar on Ebay today, since I now have pictures of the pickups and a closeup of the back, honesty would demand I post them in the ad (that and I'd want to keep my 100% feedback rating). The guitar in all likelyhood would not command the dollars a 1-piece back guitar with labeled Dry Zs would get. And if I was able to prove they are Dry 82 the guitar also would not command the dollars.

The whole thing is a shame because the guitar is in incredible shape, better than a lot of new guitars hanging on the wall at a music store. And yes, I know I am an idiot for not asking for more pictures.

 

[CliffsGuitarWorld]

Here is a Photo bucket link to my 1980 Greco Super Real EG-1000C and it is stock as can be with Dry-Z Pups.. Enjoy...

http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/cliffjordan1/1980%20Greco%20EG-1000C/

 

[wknight2]

Hi Cliff:
That was the custom I was going to buy (I see in your pics the labeled Dry Zs), but ended up with this one.

I asked the seller "How do you think we should handle this" (as the back was misrepresented as well). If they said "Gee, sorry, I didn't know, let me at least refund your shipping costs" I would have felt OK, honest mistake. BUT, scaled down answer was "that ebay listing closed because the item is no longer for sale." which basically means "ha-ha transaction was done outside of Ebay. You have no recourse". Very clever on their part.

So, my final conclusion is they are not Dry Zs.

Some other folks who were also victims of fraud contacted me. Here are some useful tips for people buying and selling via the internet:

1. If the item was listed on Ebay, don't let the seller cancel the auction. If they do, you do not have Ebay protection.
2. If paying with Paypal, be sure to mark EBay Item and the auction item number. If you do not, you will not have Paypal protection.
3. It has been suggested that when buying from craigslist or some other internet ad including a web site, have the seller put up an Ebay auction with a Buy-it-now and you buy it. You pay the seller for the fees. Think of this as an insurance policy. Yes, you may pay an extra 3-5% for the item, but, you will have some piece of mind.
4. When paying with Paypal, it may default to bank account. Use your credit card. You will have 1 more layer of protection, you can call your credit card company.
5. A wire-transfer, cashiers check, money order, etc offers you no protection at all. Only use this method if you are very comfortable with the seller, and you really want the guitar
6. Always ask for pictures of everything important on the guitar! In today's day and age, everyone has at least a cell-phone camera. If they are savvy enough to post an ebay ad, they are savvy enough to post pictures. Be concerned if they tell you they don't have time or don't know how.
Be concerned if there are aspects of the guitar which make it valuable, but, there are no pictures of that aspect.
7. If the dollar amount was substantial enough, your attorney can advise you as to the other options available. Be sure to use one versed in internet matters.

 

[japanstrat]

I don't want to get into the business side of the guitar you bought I'm just talking about the pickups. There is little doubt in my mind that the pickups are unstamped Greco pickups and are not from another pickup maker and I would tend to think they are Fujigen made pickups (starting around November 1981) and are either Dry 82, Double Trick, Groovin or Screamin pickups. IMO the Dry 82 sticker could be taken off quite easily leaving an unstamped pickup. You can't know for sure if they are Dry Z's unless you have a great ear and have heard a few Dry Z's before. From the Greco 1982 catalog it seems the Double Trick, Groovin and Screamin AC impedance specs (not DC resistance) at different frequencies seem to be a bit higher than the Dry Z's so they would be a bit hotter than Dry Z's but the difference might be small. The pickups have had the pickup covers removed but lots of players do that to try other pickups and it is possible that the original pickups were put back.

 

[Mickdal]

Hi japanstrat

I have heard the pickups on that guitar, before it was sold to a TF member.......

I also owned a 1984 Greco RR95K with the Kahler tremelo and dry 1982 pickups, very heavy at 5.4kg, and pure rock tones, very high clarity.

On comparo, the EG1000 sounded much better, it sustained longer and was even more clearer in sound than the Dry 1982, I was very surprised at the sound, and was in no doubt that they are of a higher quality than the Dry 1982 in the Randy guitar I had.

The base plates looked totally different, and I do know that Dry Z have 2 different types of base plates, on with the pickup wire holes being the same size and spaced further in from the corner of the base plate, and the other with a larger hole that is spaced close to a corner, the pickups on the EG 1000 are of the later type. Also I have seen Dry Z stamped pickups from as late as October 1981 and as early as January 1982, but nothing yet for November or December 1981.


kind regards Mick

 

[leadguitar_323]

Hi Mick, i don't think comparing different guitars with different pickups is much good. If you were to put both sets of pickups in the same guitar it would be a much better way of comparing the tone.{different guitars sound different naturally}. I have 8 LP's with different pickups in all of them , Bill Lawrence, dimarzio's, seymore's, hand wound ones and stock ones and the clearest thickest sounding pickups i have are the "dry 1982's" {if and when i record any clean stuff i will use this guitar}but once again these would sound different in another guitar. I think there is way too much hype with these "dry Z's" and there is no way i could justify paying the ridiculous prices being asked for these things, especially when i have great sounding pickups..
All my guitars are different weights and all sound naturally different.

Mick

 

[MIJvintage]

in the 1981 Greco catalog the EG1000 is showing on page 8, shown in black finish, and listed as having DRY pickups.


The EG800C is showing on page 10, shown in the finish color that you purchased Ed, and is listed on page 9 as having Screamin pickups.

http://brochures.yokochou.com/guitar-and-amp/greco/1981/index.html

Ed, I know yours has the EG1000 sticker but is it possible that you purchased an EG800C instead of an EG1000?

 

[wknight2]

Good catch Rich! Stickers are easy to pull off of a broken guitar or to scan in and print on a PC.

I wish I could read Japanese. I'd be interested in knowing if the catalog says that EG1000 only came in black, and if EG1000 was only 1 or 2 piece back not 3, etc.

in the 1981 Greco catalog the EG1000 is showing on page 8, shown in black finish, and listed as having DRY pickups.


The EG800C is showing on page 10, shown in the finish color that you purchased Ed, and is listed on page 9 as having Screamin pickups.

http://brochures.yokochou.com/guitar-and-amp/greco/1981/index.html

Ed, I know yours has the EG1000 sticker but is it possible that you purchased an EG800C instead of an EG1000?

 

[wknight2]

The Fraud Investigator from Paypal gave me some additional information I thought would be helpful to share:

If you buy something on Ebay, and the seller asks you to use a different paypal account, ie not the one that is tied into the seller's Ebay account, don't do it! Paypal will not protect you in that case.

 

[Mickdal]

your comments regarding the EG1000 I sold to you are pathetic, the discussion regarding authentication of Dry Z is still not finished. I know they are original pickups, and that they are in fact Dry Z.

your attempts to persuade other forum members that this was a fraudulent sale by me to you, can only be described as the behavior expected from a
The guitar is 100% original, and only a moron would describe the condition of the soldering as being evidence to not being an original pickup, whereas the soldering is in fact just sloppy, nothing unusual there.

your comments to paypal were nothing but pathetic

It was YOU who chose to purchase the guitar outside of EBAY it was NOT me!!

I sold you a guitar on good faith being an original 1981 EG1000 Greco, and you have done nothing but try to discredit the guitar.

YOU had that guitar for over 3 weeks, nearly 1 month before emailing me with a concern, and a concern that I will simply wave away, for the simple reason that I KNOW the guitar is 100% original.

Therefore you clearly have played the guitar and have heard the tone, and have commented to me clearly that it is all of what you expected.

As for the 1 piece, 3 piece back issue, you have clearly said to me that it was no fault of mine, and that u understood, but clearly that is not the case is it,

Until now......................

 

[leadguitar_323]

8)

 

[wknight2]

I left any mention of your name out of my discussions, I referred to you as "the seller".

After I clarify a few things, I will not reply to this thread anymore. For the sake of the forum, please, lets keep further debates between you and I off of the forum.

Quote: "only a moron would describe the condition of the soldering as being evidence to not being an original pickup"

Others, who when presented with pictures, came to this conclusion, which I tend to agree with.

Quote: "It was YOU who chose to purchase the guitar outside of EBAY it was NOT me!!"

I can provide you with copies of the Ebay messages if you don't remember the conversation.

Quote: "YOU had that guitar for over 3 weeks"

True. I opened the case, the guitar was in great shape, it's nice-looking, it played well and sounded good. I put it back in the case. I didn't pull the pickups, or check if the back was 3 piece, why would I since the guitar was sold by a forum member? I batched up your guitar with some others including 3 from Villager. When the ones from Villager arrived, I made an appointment with the guitar techs, who also pointed out the items discussed. You are welcome to speak to them.

I don't think anyone would "clean" the back of $600 pickups to the extent that they are no longer identifiable. I asked opinions on this forum because, people on this forum own or have owned Grecos and/or Dry Zs. Their opinion has weight. The fact remains, not a single person has ever seen a Dry Z without markings of any kind. Sure, lots of speculation, but no one has actually ever seen one.

I don't need to persuade anyone the sale was fraudulent. You had 7 pictures of the pickups but chose not to include those pictures in the Ebay ad. Why is that I might ask? You said the guitar was 1 piece, it was 3. That alone is reason to take a guitar back or at least work with me, which you refused to do. Did you notice how Rupert handled a situation with a buyer who just didn't like a guitar? That is class. When I asked you what we should do, "that Ebay auction is closed because the item is no longer for sale" means "ha, your problem now".

Regarding my background, Paypal is within their rights to make sure the person filing a complaint is a reputable person.

Finally, the guitar being an EG1000 has even been called into question, I've been emailed some catalog scans and pictures that seem to indicate EG1000 customs were black, this one may be an 850 with an EG1000 sticker.

I will no longer reply to this thread, nor mention this matter further on the forum. You are welcome to email me directly.