Gibson Historic pot/cap upgrade

[markcus58]

OK, I did the adjustment last evening and things are cool on that end now. It's another bit of knowledge in the unending list.

Now the next subject. I visited my local one man custom guitar shop here in Yokohama who has quite a history and we had a long talk about upgrades and Tokai's in general. We have agreed on the componets and discussed wiring. A few Les Paul books were brought out and wiring photos studied. Most supported the vintage wiring schemes I have printed off the web. An interesting element is that he sells Cryogenic treated A&B CTS pots and treated jacks. There is not much info on the US web for this treatment of the metal but there is some for valve amp tubes. Well he supports the audio improvements so they were added to the list. I will use an oil cap that is his recomedation also as well as grounding directly the jack to pots. All that plus the Tom Holmes p/u's should get it in line with the vintage sound.
The final (??) element was upgrading to the Gotoh SD90-sl tuners that come stock on the high end Tokai's.
It goes under the knife next week.
I'll report back afterwards.

 

[Paladin2019]

...Cryogenic treated A&B CTS pots and treated jacks. There is not much info on the US web for this treatment of the metal but there is some for valve amp tubes. Well he supports the audio improvements so they were added to the list. I will use an oil cap that is his recomedation also as well as grounding directly the jack to pots. All that plus the Tom Holmes p/u's should get it in line with the vintage sound.

Direct grounding is good practice but I still say that oil caps are a complete waste of money as tone controls, and cryo treatment is pure snake oil.

If the price difference is only a little bit here and there then there's no harm in going for it, but if it's a big jump then I say avoid. A lot of these guys are just giving the customer what they want, which I can't blame them for, especially when the customer is willing to pay big money for it. But what the customer wants isn't always a genuine improvement or good value for money and they know it, especially when it comes to the kind of "vintage" voodoo that electric guitarists are notorious for swallowing.

All IMO, naturally. But also a pet hate of mine since I got over my compulsive modding phase!

 

[ganzua]

Most supported the vintage wiring schemes I have printed off the web.

I think the wiring must suit the kind of pick ups you have and your personal tastes. It is something that you have to decide after living with the guitar for a while.

An interesting element is that he sells Cryogenic treated A&B CTS pots and treated jacks.

What's the adventages over a regular CTS pot and jack? :grin:

I will use an oil cap that is his recomedation

I would use a paper in oil cap like a Bumblebee. They work great with Les Pauls, it has been proved during the last 50 years. :grin: If you don't move too much the tone pots you don't really need to care much about this issue.

upgrading to the Gotoh SD90-sl tuners that come stock on the high end Tokai's

I don't know how much are you going to pay for all this upgrading but I recently installed Gotoh SD90 tuners (for different reasons) and it is the exactly same former tuner with the only difference that the machine is harder to turn.

 

[ganzua]

oil caps are a complete waste of money as tone controls, and cryo treatment is pure snake oil.

If the price difference is only a little bit here and there then there's no harm

Right, it has no sense to pay 200$ for a cap but there are cheaper options :grin:

 

[ganzua]

But also a pet hate of mine since I got over my compulsive modding phase!

I'm a compulsive modder! :lol: While modding, you research and you learn a lot. Sometimes, you want to through away a guitar and it happens that it only needed some little mods to be a great guitar. It is cheaper some extra-work than purchasing a new one.

Also, after having modded a lot of guitars you learn to recognize all the flaws whenever you go to purchase a new one.

 

[leadguitar_323]

cryo treatment is pure snake oil.

Interesting, i am into custom old motorcycles and a lot of guys i know that still drag and race their bikes are getting their cranks, rods, cams and other high stress parts cryogenicaly treated, as it changes the molecular structure of the metal and brings the molecules in the steel closer together or makes them smaller, enhancing the strength and therefore improving the durability of the parts, sometimes up to 200% more strength or extending the life by the same or similar amount. So what i am getting at is it will extend the life of the pots......definitely not "snake oil".

Mick

 

[stratmoto]

cryo treatment is pure snake oil.

Interesting, i am into custom old motorcycles and a lot of guys i know that still drag and race their bikes are getting their cranks, rods, cams and other high stress parts cryogenicaly treated, as it changes the molecular structure of the metal and brings the molecules in the steel closer together or makes them smaller, enhancing the strength and therefore improving the durability of the parts, sometimes up to 200% more strength or extending the life by the same or similar amount. So what i am getting at is it will extend the life of the pots......definitely not "snake oil".

Mick

Late model TZ Yamaha production road racers are an example of this.

Certain gearbox parts have a very short life. Cryogenic treatment has been proven to extend the life of these highly stressed parts.

They MUST be replaced after a certain amount of kilometers, or they will break, ending in a catastrophic failure. The factory stipulate strict adherance to this. The cryogenically treated gearboxes have proven to double the mileage of the standard parts.

The process allows the molecules, and subsequent grain patterns, to bond together more closely.

Not all snake oil, but not too sure what it does to a potentiometer.

 

[Paladin2019]

its snake oil as a tone improver. and i certainly wouldn't call pots or a lack highly stressed in the same way as a gearbox. plenty have survived 60 years on guitars with no problems. and yes, nodding is how i learned what i know today, but now i feel the need to pass on what i learned to save the poster some cash and stress

 

[leadguitar_323]

It would probably just make the pots last longer, especially in a regularly gigged guitar, i don't think it would be tone altering either.


Mick

 

[markcus58]

The snake oil cyro upgrade adds about 25 bucks, not a big deal, and I have seen the technolgy listed on an amp tube website as an improvement in tone as well as durability. Allignment of carbon molecules may have a miniscule effect in this application, or it may not. Maybe in a few years it will be the norm, as such things go sometimes. I have a tinkering mindset; having owned a '58 Vette for 32 years now I cannot begin to list the tinkering and upgrading I have done to that machine. Can you argue with upgrading to disc brakes no matter the cost ?? but to a purist the weak orginals are still orginals (I put them in a box of course). With respect to the local J-guitar tech, I have to differ to his expertise and selection of components with the understanding the orginals are in a box and can be changed back. I am trying to end up with a close copy '59 LP by having this Tokai which is created to those specs, great replica PU's and wired just as they were back in '59, and with PIO caps (that were not a bank buster either) that is a great guitar to play and hear and see.
As for the tuners, they are a different manufacturer. They are stamped on the back different and dimensionally they are different both in case size and the shaft diameter. I put a caliper on them myself. Consider that Tokai does not indicate the tuner on LS100Q specs yet lists the SD90 on the top end units. So on they will go with hopes they keep the guitar intune longer. I can say the keys are a more pronounced pearloid in looks. As another little touch I added the Gibby '59 truss rod cover. What the heck, eh.
The end result is an overall lessor output of cash on a stunning quilted "Pacifix Exclusive" upgraded by an expert who knows Japanese guitars inside and out.
Now I am looking into the bridge and may consider a Gotoh/Wilkinson roller, depends what I learn about them...But this should be the last of upgrades.
When it is complete I'll post a couple pics.

 

[Paladin2019]

25 is far too much imo. double the price for a very questionable improvement. i've only ever seen cryo treatment listed on audiophile websites as a tone enhancer, and those lunatics will believe anything and pay anything to get it. there are some who want the best and will stop at nothing to get it, and if you're one of them them good luck to you. but if you are concerned with value for money and genuine improvement in sound then i think you're making a mistake.

 

[markcus58]

Here are a couple photos with a pic of the finished vintage '59 wiring work. The caps are Panasonic oil (Matsushita) and cut the tone very nicely. Notice the photo of the Gotoh SD90 (Japan) tuner to the stock PW. The turning action is firmer and the machining is better. Notice also the stock no name bridge/tail to the Gotoh in the side by side pic. The real Gotoh bridge was added to this LS but I left the stock tail piece. There is a pic of the cryo treatment pots package for reference.
After side by side comparison the stock switch was exactly like the Gotoh so it stayed in.
A photo if the Tom Holmes pu are there too. I noted that the guitar body was routed for the long tenon but the neck was standard. I measured the glue area of the neck and the long tenon unused area. The added "contact" area of the longer tenon is a bit less than 10%; more like 8%. From my old school shop days I remember a glue joint is stronger than wood and the wood will break before the glue; how does a bit more glue area of a long tenon neck make a difference in this design ? That I am not sure of.
Well, on my little Line 6 apartment amp I have here set to clean mode it sings very nice. Cutting the tone down makes some soft, warm sounds. I need to set the intonation to finish up and then enjoy the guitar.

Solder work looks only OK to me. When I am home with tools-a-plenty I will resolder and replace the thin shielded wires.

Tuner on the left is the Gotoh SD90. It is easy to see the post machining difference, longer key leg and smaller case size.

Here is a pic of the underside of the bridge and tail pieces. The Tokai pieces are un-marked. It was interesting that the tail piece was thicker in the body bolt area so I stuck with it. I did upgrade to the Gotoh bridge (simple swap with stock studs left in place) because the unit looked better in the side by side comparison.

Tom Holmes Japanese H453 pickups. Replica PAF.

Pic of the Cyro treated Japanese CTS pots. It is difficult to find info on the American websites but there are a couple on the Asian sites.

 

[DaveWW]

Looks good - nice neat job. Neater than mine anyway pic below

IMHO you need to use those Tom Holmes pickups and modded gear through a valve amp to truly get the benefit.

You Tom holmes looks similar to mine, fiited on a momose strat, but not quite the same markings.

Dave

 

[DaveWW]

After a bit of googling it looks like my H453 is US made. One of these days I might try it in an LP

Dave

 

[Mick51]

The H453 are a bit uncommon. The H450 and H455 are more common; if any Tom Holmes p/up can be called "common."

 

[markcus58]

I agree the guitar needs a valve amp. There is one at home waiting. It's a Fender Deluxe Reverb replica point to point. While in Japan I am busy with stocking up on the local merchandise and look forward to the eventual return. I will be busy for some time then trying and experimenting with settings.

 

[karppi]

There is nothing special in these original images from my LC95. Just want to show how amazingly decently the work has been done in this low end guitar. Job is not always that good. Both of original caps seems to be 0.022uF in this one while sometimes those are little bit bigger like 0.03x or even 0.04xuF.

http://picasaweb.google.fi/cancsteri/TokaiLC95WR?authkey=Gv1sRgCISmmOqa-aayrgE#5351161140281635106

And here is the same guitar from little bit different "angle". Looks like two piece SOLID body to me? No drill holes or chambers, or any other diets. Very vintage and 50s style.

http://picasaweb.google.fi/cancsteri/TokaiLC95WR?authkey=Gv1sRgCISmmOqa-aayrgE#5298644713889045362

Sorry for off topic. Found this when looking for information about 50s wiring style.

 

[leadguitar_323]

I definitely wouldn't call a LC-90 a low end guitar, they are extremely well made and have good hardware as well and if the exact guitar was made in USA it would cost 3 times as much.... Tokai's lower end stuff comes out of Korea or China......all Mij Tokai's are excellent value for money.

Mick

 

[karppi]

I definitely wouldn't call a LC-90 a low end guitar, they are extremely well made and have good hardware as well and if the exact guitar was made in USA it would cost 3 times as much.... Tokai's lower end stuff comes out of Korea or China......all Mij Tokai's are excellent value for money.

Mick

Sure. I was thinking only MIJ Tokai les paul and what I meant was that those LC/LS90 are the cheapest japanese ones. I paid 600 euros for my new LC and if it is possible to find as good or even better guitar for that money please tell me