Brazilian rosewood on Tokai Reborn ?

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I recently have read an article about an early Love rock 150 and it was said the fretboard is brazilian rosewood.Villager told me once that he is not sure if rosewood is used always on vintage Tokais.When I compare by the look the fretboard of a Reborn LS100 with my Greco 1200 it looks the same for me.Anybody who can say if Reborns had braz and on which models ?
 
There are so few of the really high-spec models (150, 200) from the early years, that really anything is possible. Even if we could find some literature or a spec sheet that said they used Brazilian rosewood on a certain model, Tokai did not hold very well to their printed specs. They changed a lot of things as finances and suppliers would dictate. The special order guitars were not always consistent.

Probably the most pragmatic view to take is that they used whatever rosewood (or equivalent species) as was available to them at the time. Shaving off a sample and sending it to a wood nerd to look at under a microscope might give some answers for a particular guitar.

Unless you are selling it on ebay of course, where all Tokai guitars have Brazilian rosewood, real PAFs and Honduras mahogany :)
 
Evidently before it became restricted Brazilian was just another choice for rosewood, wasn`t more precious than any other rosewood...if Japanese builders knew then what they know now they would have hung onto it and charged much more money for it today. I picked up a classical locally a couple of years ago that appears to be Brazilian to me...I paid 5000 yen for it at the time in a small pawn type place...around $50.00 Canadian...I offered them 5000 yen, it had just come in and they had not priced it yet, it was face down on the floor which is why I saw the back...the two shop staff looked at each other like mice who`d just stolen the cheese. The guitar is was not made by some famous builder, we looked for his name on the web and found nothing though one builder told us the man who built mine was a student of his long ago...point is, from what I can tell, there was lots it around, wasn`t rare, anybody could and did use it. Wasn`t until CITES that people started going bananas over it ... before that it was just rosewood. Could be Tokai never mentioned it because it wasn`t important at the time, if they had any inkling that it was going to what it is today they would have charged far more for it....just like people are doing today and I guess people figure if it`s so expensive it must be better right?
 
About brazilian rosewood: Not all so called brazilian rosewood (called here in Spain "Rio" by "guitarreros" (classic guitar luthiers) and "dalbergia nigra" (technical specie) is what it claims. There are several "jacarandas" different than dalbergia nigra from South and Central America. Dalbergia nigra is dark, not that brown pale what you see in recent guitars (those are very good palisanders (rosewood) species but not dalbergia nigra). "Guitarreros" like Ramirez brothers, Rodriguez Sr., Marcelo Barbero and the like used that wood because its properties.Torres found that 3 centuries ago altough used other woods for his buildings. Recent spanish luthier recomend Indian rosewood today(John Ray-Granada-) for example, because they think Indian has a high quality nowadays.

Tokai is intorducing Madagascar rosewood in their middle line-up nowadays.
 
sneakyjapan said:
Could be Tokai never mentioned it because it wasn`t important at the time..

Well, I don't think so for Greco did specifically mention it for the higher end models in their early 80s catalogs.
 
For what it is worth Greco did list the specs of fretboards in the 80 and 81 catalogs. Whether they actually followed the specs is another story. Lots of surprises and models for 1981 that people wouldn't claim as Braz or for the 1980 listed ebony models. Looks like a simple mistake with listing all the ebony models for 80 I think.

1980:
Brazilian ブラジリアン
EGF-1800
EGF-1200
EGF-1000

Indian インディアン
EG-850
SA-1200

Ebony エボニー
EG-1000
EG-800C
EG-800GS
EG-800PB
EG-800PR
EG-600PB
EG-600PR

Rosewood ローズウッド
EG-700
EG-500 and below

From 81:

Brazilian ブラジリアン
EGF-1800
EGF-1200
EGF-1000
EG-700
EG-900
EG-800P
EG-800GS
EG-800C
EG-800

Indian インディアン
EG-850
SA-1200

Rosewood ローズウッド
EG-600 and below

Ebony エボニー
EG-1000
 
Well, I said "could be"...meaning, maybe, and I do not speak for all makers nor pretend that I know everything about old MIJ`s...even the ones I own... I leave that to others...my point was, apparently Brazilian was abundant before the restrictions and from what I see and have seen over the years in Japan, many builders didn`t always distinguish between it and other rosewoods...Greco did for certain years, not all, but the people making them were only one of an unknown number of factories making guitars in Japan during and well before the early 1980`s....I have MIJ nylon string acoustics going back to 1948. Even more famous builders did not always distinguish the rosewoods they used, and again I speak from what I actually see not from what I read on web sites written by people who`ve never been to Japan and seen what was/is available. When I was a kid...cue the age cracks and/or name calling that some members like to engage in now... MIJ meant stuff that looked like it was going to break before we got it to the car, since arriving in Japan and looking around I see they certainly built very high quality goods...my wife and I collect Japanese antiques...so evidently they just exported the crap to the big noses overseas and kept the good stuff at home. Just as catalogues are not accurate representations of all the guitars factories made, neither were the exports coming out of Japan for a long time.
 
Brazilian Rosewood started to disappear from USA production guitars in the mid-1960's. I'm not sure about Japan, but was it different?
 
You can buy elephant tusks on line in Japan today, saw some recently....so I`d say yes...it`s different in Japan...lots of things are different in Japan, I don`t bring up the tusks or tortoise shells or shark`s fins etc.etc.etc. with people here because they`d rather not discuss it. There`s a shop displaying an elephant tusk in the window downtown here, I`ll snap a pic and post it next time I`m around there.
Brazilian may have started disappearing in the US at that time but I`d wager it was still available to those countries who didn`t really pay much attention to CITES and stuff like that, and since I don`t have direct access to documentation from any factories in Japan, I can`t say I`m certain but judging from what I see, I`d say yeah...some things that have been restricted elsewhere may not be in Japan.
 
I compared both guitars (Greco1200 + Reborn LS100) side by side now.Tokai fretboard is a lot darker.
 
theres a thread somewhere discussing this and the conclusion was inconclusive!! heh braz also varies a LOT so a great indian board can LOOK better than an average braz board..
 
Timo, my observations are the same: Tokai boards on 1978-1981 (not much experience outside this range) models have a far darker appearance than the Greco 1980/81 EGF models I've seen. That on itself doesn't explain what kind of wood was used on the Tokai's. But it seems to be very consistent in color and dark to an extent that grain lines are hardly visible. Stained or did they buy a large quantity of a certain species? I don't know. I have tried to decipher the Tokai catalogs on Vintaxe which are larger copies than here on the registry (thus readable) but there's so much text that it needs someone like Harold to make some sense out of it.

Regarding availability: Honduran mahogany is on the CITES list since november 16 1995, Brazilian rosewood since november 6 1992, so that's way later than the vintage Tokai's we're talking about.
Fujigen, one the leading guitar factories of that time in Japan, was using Brazilian rosewood on higher end models. There's proof of that in the Greco catalogs. So this type of rosewood was acknowledged for what it was in 1980 and because of that very likely that Tokai had the same knowledge as well, thus your 1979 Tokai could have a Brazilian board.

A good dendrologist should have no problems identifying your fretboard wood. Or you could visit Erik van de Haar, the guy you bought your Dr.Z amp from, when you're in the area again. Nowadays a luthier, he used to be a wood importer, has a huge stockpile of different wood types (you should see his stash of highly figured maple, out of this world!!) and has shown me all shades of Brasilian rosewood, nice guy!
 
jacco said:
Timo, my observations are the same: Tokai boards on 1978-1981 (not much experience outside this range) models have a far darker appearance than the Greco 1980/81 EGF models I've seen. That on itself doesn't explain what kind of wood was used on the Tokai's. But it seems to be very consistent in color and dark to an extent that grain lines are hardly visible. Stained or did they buy a large quantity of a certain species? I don't know. I have tried to decipher the Tokai catalogs on Vintaxe which are larger copies than here on the registry (thus readable) but there's so much text that it needs someone like Harold to make some sense out of it.

Regarding availability: Honduran mahogany is on the CITES list since november 16 1995, Brazilian rosewood since november 6 1992, so that's way later than the vintage Tokai's we're talking about.
Fujigen, one the leading guitar factories of that time in Japan, was using Brazilian rosewood on higher end models. There's proof of that in the Greco catalogs. So this type of rosewood was acknowledged for what it was in 1980 and because of that very likely that Tokai had the same knowledge as well, thus your 1979 Tokai could have a Brazilian board.

A good dendrologist should have no problems identifying your fretboard wood. Or you could visit Erik van de Haar, the guy you bought your Dr.Z amp from, when you're in the area again. Nowadays a luthier, he used to be a wood importer, has a huge stockpile of different wood types (you should see his stash of highly figured maple, out of this world!!) and has shown me all shades of Brasilian rosewood, nice guy!

Thanks a lot Jacco :wink:
 
It?s not so easy identitying certain wood species, specially honduras mahogany,ADN scientific method is need (DNA is called in english?). And you are not 100% sure in that case. It?s not easy distingsh between real honduras mahogany and "caviuna" specie (used by spahish luthiers today).
 
Yes I am sure there is a huge amount of different rosewood from various locations used for fretboards but in the end it doesn't matter as long as the guitar looks and sounds good.It is clear that Tokai used high quality woods from different sources and I am happy enough to own such a vintage Les Paul :D
 

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