Nitro or Poly?

[Marco78]

A question on Tokai: the LS160 is Lacquer finish, while LS420 and LS540 are Laquer.

What are the difference?

Isn't the LS150 totally nitro?

From TGP:

The LS-150 (now LS-160) plaintop is probably the best deal on the planet for a new LP with almost the same specs as the 50's ones.
However it does have a poly base coat with lacquer coats over that, and the neck angle (NOT the headstock angle) is slightly steeper than some of the 50s models.

Cheers

 

[JVsearch]

That is correct, only the top coat is lacquer/nitro on the LS-150/160. This is extremely common, and pretty much the norm until you get to a certain price point, and it's true of US makers as well
(maybe not Gibson, nobody knows for sure).

As you point out it's the wording in the Tokai catalogues that tells the full story with the finishes. I think "Lacquer" can only be used where there is nothing but lacquer on the guitar.
The "Lacquer Finish" term tells me that only the top coat is lacquer, the base coats would be poly. It don't really make any difference at all to the guitar, as long as the finish is thin and not piled on. Which it isn't.

AFAIK, only the two top models are all lacquer/nitro finishes. There may be one of the new HLS models that are all lacquer as well, possibly the HLS-360, but I'm not sure.

As for the neck angle, the 50s Gibsons had pretty shallow neck angles of 2.5 to 3 degrees, but in the 70s they got pretty steep, like 5 degrees. It's probably not that big of a deal, and is typical for Japanese copies over the years to mix around the specs from various Gibson eras. The Reborns/Early Love Rocks all have medium tenons for example, like the 1968/69 Gibson Les Pauls, and some of them also have clown burst finishes like a 70s LP.

 

[Marco78]

That is correct, only the top coat is lacquer/nitro on the LS-150/160. This is extremely common, and pretty much the norm until you get to a certain price point, and it's true of US makers as well
(maybe not Gibson, nobody knows for sure).

As you point out it's the wording in the Tokai catalogues that tells the full story with the finishes. I think "Lacquer" can only be used where there is nothing but lacquer on the guitar.
The "Lacquer Finish" term tells me that only the top coat is lacquer, the base coats would be poly. It don't really make any difference at all to the guitar, as long as the finish is thin and not piled on. Which it isn't.

AFAIK, only the two top models are all lacquer/nitro finishes. There may be one of the new HLS models that are all lacquer as well, possibly the HLS-360, but I'm not sure.

As for the neck angle, the 50s Gibsons had pretty shallow neck angles of 2.5 to 3 degrees, but in the 70s they got pretty steep, like 5 degrees. It's probably not that big of a deal, and is typical for Japanese copies over the years to mix around the specs from various Gibson eras. The Reborns/Early Love Rocks all have medium tenons for example, like the 1968/69 Gibson Les Pauls, and some of them also have clown burst finishes like a 70s LP.

TNX! You are a bible! :lol:

 

[Diamond]

Have you ever seen a matt finished 'poly' Tokai?
Or rather, have you ever seen unpolished 'poly'?

I'll tell you what it looks like...it's invisible.

 

[JVsearch]

Have you ever seen a matt finished 'poly' Tokai?
Or rather, have you ever seen unpolished 'poly'?

I'll tell you what it looks like...it's invisible.

I haven't seen the Tokai finish but I've seen a similar thing on other guitars, and it was a VERY thin finish, not to mention nice and slippery too.

I wonder how long it will take for these types of finishes to start showing wear (or mojo as it is also known). The Fender Thin Skin finish is said to start wearing quite quickly, like one or two years.

 

[Anonymous]

The "Lacquer Finish" term tells me that only the top coat is lacquer, the base coats would be poly. It don't really make any difference at all to the guitar, as long as the finish is thin and not piled on. Which it isn't.

Well it does make a difference - a nitro finished guitar with a poly base coat won't age the way an all nitro guitar will. I'm coming to the conclusion that there isn't really much point in these nitro top coats. All nitro makes sense. All poly makes sense. A hybrid of the two seems rather pointless.

My ES130 (nitro top coat) doesn't really feel any different to my LS85S (poly), not least because Tokai use thin poly. 70s Fenders had many coats of thick poly - Tokai just used less of the stuff.

 

[JVsearch]

Well it does make a difference - a nitro finished guitar with a poly base coat won't age the way an all nitro guitar will. I'm coming to the conclusion that there isn't really much point in these nitro top coats. All nitro makes sense. All poly makes sense. A hybrid of the two seems rather pointless.

Maybe the top coat will age... besides who gives a **** about ageing? Just buy a relic!

Base or sealer coats are entirely different to the top coat as some of it soaks into the wood, how much depends on what type of wood the body is made of.

There must be some reason for doing the nitro top coat? Or maybe just marketing?
Personally I'm not sure how "nitro" Gibson finishes are these days and there's proof that Fender uses a poly base coat. It is now big $ for a fully nitro finished guitar, so maybe it is all just marketing!

 

[Diamond]

The matt/satin finished poly guitars feel & look like a raw piece of wood.
So, IMO, if you add a nitro coat on top of that, the guitar definitely has the opportunity to age "naturally", or look naturally aged.

I think the glossy/polished look of poly goes a long way to creating a negative impression of what poly 'really' is...and obviously there are different ways of applying poly, in other words too thick, or just right.
I think Tokai do it just right.

 

[Leif]

By all accounts the finish makes no difference to the sound unless it is very thick, at least according to some people who removed the finish from a guitar in order to refurbish it. So apart from aging, does it matter? There is also polyester which apparently takes much less time to cure, and could be used as an undercoat for nitro.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe the top coat will age... besides who gives a **** about ageing? Just buy a relic!

Lots of people give a **** about ageing! That's why they're prepared to pay extra for nitro. I can see no evidence that a nitro over poly finish will age any differently to an all poly finish. An all nitro finish is different, it does age differently (and much more quickly)

There must be some reason for doing the nitro top coat? Or maybe just marketing?
Personally I'm not sure how "nitro" Gibson finishes are these days and there's proof that Fender uses a poly base coat. It is now big $ for a fully nitro finished guitar, so maybe it is all just marketing!

It's largely marketing, specially with Fender, who have been less-than-honest about the finish on various guitars, including the USRIs & the Road Worns. Maybe Fender were listening to the comments on various forums, as they have now (in the last few weeks) dropped any reference to the finish in the specs list on their website:

http://www.fender.com/uk/products/search.php?partno=0131010300

They don't even tell you what the body wood is any more!

 

[Anonymous]

By all accounts the finish makes no difference to the sound unless it is very thick, at least according to some people who removed the finish from a guitar in order to refurbish it. So apart from ageing, does it matter? There is also polyester which apparently takes much less time to cure, and could be used as an undercoat for nitro.

When you say "by all accounts", I think what you mean is "in the opinion of many people". Those two sentences have different meanings.

Don't dismiss ageing, there's a big market for reliced or aged guitars. And you don't get that with poly. I have Tokais that are 30 years old & almost mint - you don't get that with nitro.

You shouldn't dismiss something because it doesn't matter to you - people pay good money for a finish that will age like the vintage guitars did. With a poly base coat they won't get that.

 

[Leif]

By all accounts the finish makes no difference to the sound unless it is very thick, at least according to some people who removed the finish from a guitar in order to refurbish it. So apart from ageing, does it matter? There is also polyester which apparently takes much less time to cure, and could be used as an undercoat for nitro.

When you say "by all accounts", I think what you mean is "in the opinion of many people". Those two sentences have different meanings.

Don't dismiss ageing, there's a big market for reliced or aged guitars. And you don't get that with poly. I have Tokais that are 30 years old & almost mint - you don't get that with nitro.

You shouldn't dismiss something because it doesn't matter to you - people pay good money for a finish that will age like the vintage guitars did. With a poly base coat they won't get that.

No, I said "apart from ageing, does it matter?", Whether ageing matters is for you to decide, not me. Personally I like poly, but I wouldn't impose my tastes on others.

When I said "by all accounts" with reference to the sound, it was the impression that I got from seaching the internet. There is considerable disagreement, with lots of talk of polyurethane preventing the guitar from resonating, but with no supporting evidence. It sounds good (excuse the pun) but without evidence, it means nothing. However, there are quite a few accounts from people who stripped poly coated electric guitars, and noticed no difference between the coated and uncoated versions. So my conclusion is that any difference if present is subtle, and probably less significant than variations in the wood between examples of the same model.

Obviously testing this scientifically would be rather hard, as there is no such thing as two identical guitars given variations in wood.

Given all this talk of ageing, I wonder how the other parts of the guitar wear? The fretboard and frets will wear out with use, and the plastics will suffer from exposure to light especially UV. Quite how much I know not. My 30 year old acoustic has plastic binding which shows no outward signs of decay, so maybe these plastic are stable.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, bearing in mind how much disagreement there is about whether PIO caps can actually sound better than cheap ceramic caps, it's inevitable that there will be disagreement about whether a nitro finish sounds different to a poly finish.

It's not just sound or ageing though - personally I prefer the feel of a nitro finished neck over a poly finished neck, but despite this I love my poly finished Tokais. But, my poly finished Tokais were considerably cheaper than my all-nitro finished Fenders!

I still maintain that there's only really any point to nitro if it's all nitro. If a poly base coat is used, you might as well finish the whole thing in (thin) poly. But, slapping a coat of nitro on top enables a manufacturer to charge more. Especially if they omit to mention the poly base coat, which is common (and dishonest, IMHO) practice.

As for ageing of plastic parts, it seems to vary. On Tokai Strats, the knobs tend to darken down more than the pickup covers do, for some reason. But they still vary a lot. A couple of examples:

 

[JVsearch]

There was also the story of John Lennon and George Harrison stripping the finish off their ES-330s and claiming that they then became "much better" guitars.
And these were nitro finished mid 60s Epiphone Casinos...

That leaves us... I don't know where.
Have a listen to a song called "Community Service Announcement" by Jonathan Boulet and forget about finishes (yes, I have been drinking).

 

[Leif]

There was also the story of John Lennon and George Harrison stripping the finish off their ES-330s and claiming that they then became "much better" guitars.
And these were nitro finished mid 60s Epiphone Casinos...

That leaves us... I don't know where.
Have a listen to a song called "Community Service Announcement" by Jonathan Boulet and forget about finishes (yes, I have been drinking).

Well I guess Lennon and Harrison were not renouned for their musical abilities, so we can dismiss that one. (Irony alert.) Bugger. You seem to have thrown the cat among the pigeons. Time for a drink I think.

The Boulet song was likeable enough. I am more into groups like AC/DC, and their subtle little ditties.

 

[karppi]

This battle between poly and nitro is pretty unnecessary but if you want a finish that let the wood of the instrument breath and dry even more, you have to choose nitro. Nitro finish is fading, so it is getting thinner and thinner over time, that means also loosing some colour pigment. Nitro layer will also change to amber like surface, Big Boys are talking about ambering. This is aging which you wont get by buying a relic guitar and that is why enthusiasts are planning to buy UV-cannons Scratches and other flaws on nitro layer are also very easily fixed when desired.

All this will also make the nitro finish very sensitive for example variation in temperature and humidity and chemicals like sweat. Most of us has seen those weather marks? Unplayed and brand new nitro finish is also annoyingly sticky, however well played nitro neck is very satin like and smooth. Some people also claim that nitro layers they (gibson, fender, etc) make today wont age like they used to do.

This thread is heavy stuff http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/historics-reissues/84987-fading-guitars.html Check out for example photos on page 5.

What about poly then. Well, it is like plastic and everybody knows that plastic is cheap and durable, and nothing else than that.

I think JVsearch is pretty much right, nitro might be mostly marketing thing but I also believe there is a reason why low end guitars are poly finished and more expensive guitars are nearly always nitro finished.

 

[Leif]

What about poly then. Well, it is like plastic and everybody knows that plastic is cheap and durable, and nothing else than that.

I think JVsearch is pretty much right, nitro might be mostly marketing thing but I also believe there is a reason why low end guitars are poly finished and more expensive guitars are nearly always nitro finished.

Nitro is a lot more expensive to apply, which partially answers your question. But it could well be because nitro ages more gracefully.

I read today that nitro will be banned in the UK. I think that we will be able to buy nitro guitars, but not make them.

I think if you want a really nice finish, you want shellac. Regular polishing of any blemishes creates a marvellous patina. In fact my poly acoustic has a lovely patina on the neck where I have polished the knocks and dents. Elsewhere the dings look a bit like crazed plastic, not so nice. But a gentle polish could make them look nice.

 

[Diamond]

What about poly then. Well, it is like plastic and everybody knows that plastic is cheap and durable, and nothing else than that.

.

Prove to me that Tokais poly finish is like plastic.

 

[Justin Connolly]

Just going back to the very beginning of this thread where the first reply was in response to the remark about the Plaintop LS150 (now LS160) being the best buy, a question came to mind: What quality difference does the Plaintop LS150 have over/against the same model Flametop (or UK Sunburst model)? Also, are not the finishes the same?

 

[Anonymous]

Prove to me that Tokais poly finish is like plastic.

Diamond, don't be awkward. :lol:

It's not a question of proof, it's a question of perception. If that's how he feels about poly, he's right. For him.

We're guitarists, we often don't make rational or logical decisions. We care about stuff that doesn't matter. We fit the "correct" Gibson truss rod covers to our Tokai LPs. We make sure we have the right type of knobs on it (top hat, bell knobs, speed knobs), we worry about the colour & depth of the pickup rings, we spend hours worrying about tiny details that separate different vintage-copy pickups. If one of our heroes took the scratchplate off his LP, so do we.

All this is, frankly, quite daft.

And yet when someone expresses the view that they prefer nitro finished guitars, 'cos that's how the old Fenders & Gibsons were finished, a row ensues. :roll: We're told that it doesn't matter, we're told that Fender used Fullerplast, we're told that a poly sealant coat won't make any difference etc. etc. etc.

And yet a nitro finish will (over time especially) have far more effect on the look, the feel and (maybe) the sound than any of the other little details we obsess over.

So give us a break huh? :wink:

Prove to me that a vuvuzela isn't an instrument of torture. Even a nitro finished one.....