New member..Hi Tokai!

[Bunky]

Howdy. I came upon this forum while searching for info on edwards *cough*
guitars.

Anyway, I'm glad this forum exists.
So, while I'm at it I might as well ask some things.

I have a beautiful Love Rock cherry sunburst LP standard ( I'll try and post a pic at some point) It's currently out of commission since it needs a new nut but I want to get into it again and am about to get that repaired.

I can't remember the exact year I bought it, but it was somewhere in the mid 80's. I don't think it has the exact gibby headstock.....it has a very small bump in the top middle indentation of the headstock. Whereas I think Gibson has a regular "V" shape.

Anyway, I bought it new here in the states for a ridiculous price of, I think $300.
I really loved the sound and its smokes for hard rock. The only thing is is that with the 2 pups on together, it doesn't have that characteristic "sproingy out-of-phasey" that I associate with LP's.

That sound though, is from the early LP's and I most hear it from Jimmy Pages live zep sound. Its a very characteristic tone and he also gets it with the 2 pups on with his doubleneck. I have a modern 1999-2000 EDS1275 and I also get that tone.

But... I do wish the Tokai had it...it would be icing on the cake. Other wise the guitar is fantastic in its own right.
If anyone knows what I'm talking about maybe a new set of pups might help. I don't know. I'm thinking its more the wood that does it anyway.

Cheers
Jon

 

[marcusnieman]

Should have bought the Edwards (cough)

 

[tudor]

Should have bought the Edwards (cough)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Marcus, that was a very good one ... chapeau !! :wink:

Roger

BTW - I add a kind of review of my personal taste of LP tone ... :wink:

I love the Vintage tone and not so much the harsh, high gain sound ? more the smooth vibe with singing highs, mellow midrange and pronounced ? not muddy ? basses.
I like to play clean but most the crunchy sound when my Fenders are cranked up ?
I like to play with the neck pup, dropping down the tone pot and having that Gary Moore?s sound of ?Parisienne Walkways? with an never ending sustain ? That?s my tone to die for.
But the pups must also be dirty ? the bridge pup has to have that quacking, nasal and woody tone, with nice overtones and a variety of also squealing tones that I?m able to let it come from my fingers now ? ZZ-Top tones are the best with my Kloppmanns ? no doubt!!
But don?t make the mistake to think that the ?output? of the pup causes high gain mandatorily? my Fillmores have the highest output of all ( 10.5 k / 13.5 k ) and they are the sweetest sounding pups I?ve ever heard ?

Is it that what you're looking for ???

 

[Bunky]

Should have bought the Edwards (cough)

So you're the welcome wagon

 

[Bunky]

Should have bought the Edwards (cough)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Marcus, that was a very good one ... chapeau !! :wink:

Roger

BTW - I add a kind of review of my personal taste of LP tone ... :wink:

I love the Vintage tone and not so much the harsh, high gain sound ? more the smooth vibe with singing highs, mellow midrange and pronounced ? not muddy ? basses.
I like to play clean but most the crunchy sound when my Fenders are cranked up ?
I like to play with the neck pup, dropping down the tone pot and having that Gary Moore?s sound of ?Parisienne Walkways? with an never ending sustain ? That?s my tone to die for.
But the pups must also be dirty ? the bridge pup has to have that quacking, nasal and woody tone, with nice overtones and a variety of also squealing tones that I?m able to let it come from my fingers now ? ZZ-Top tones are the best with my Kloppmanns ? no doubt!!
But don?t make the mistake to think that the ?output? of the pup causes high gain mandatorily? my Fillmores have the highest output of all ( 10.5 k / 13.5 k ) and they are the sweetest sounding pups I?ve ever heard ?

Is it that what you're looking for ???

Yeah, Gary Moore has great tone. Especially the kind that I know from his "still got the blues' album.
Don't really care for that really muted tone with the tone all the way down...I like a lot of bite/attack. But that could be the tone for a lot of humbucker guitars really. Where I see the special diffence is that characteristic phasey sound of Page. It is not specific to his customized split coil features of one of his 59's either. I've played other LP's (and like I said, my eds1275) that have that tone straight up. My love rock doesn't unfortunately, but for all other tones its great.

 

[Anonymous]

Bunky - are you OK?

R

 

[Bunky]

Bunky - are you OK?

R

In what way? <confused>

 

[tudor]

Where I see the special diffence is that characteristic phasey sound of Page

So, you should tinker with the electrics only ... no new pups.

There are some wiring diagrams available on the net which could fit ... :wink:

Roger

 

[marcusnieman]

Where I see the special diffence is that characteristic phasey sound of Page

So, you should tinker with the electrics only ... no new pups.

There are some wiring diagrams available on the net which could fit ... :wink:

Roger

Might be the Peter Green mod you're looking for with the out of phase, honky sounding tone - particulary in the middle position with both pickups active - if so, we can point you in the right direction in terms of how to get that sound.

 

[Bunky]

Thanks guys.

If you happen to have a url on hand that has these wiring mods....but please don't go through any trouble. I was just pointing out that these (or at least mine) doesn't have that "true" LP tone....at least the tone I know of.

I also was reading that thread about "Tokai vs Orville for authentic tone".
I guess this is what I'm kind of talking about.

My Love Rock sounds pretty thick and ballsy just the way it is.
I believe all the electronics are sitting on a circuit board in this instrument.
I was thinking of doing an overhaul at some point.....maybe not new pups neccesarily but ripping those guts out and doing a straight wiring job.

Maybe, however, that circuit bpard is wired up is sort of altering the true tone. I have no idea. My 7 year old Gibson doubleneck...which has a very plain standard wiring job....switches, pots and a couple of caps, has that tone I'm talking about with 2 pups selected. Thats an all mahogony body.
The crappy 490/496 stock pups had that sound but were overall attrocious sounding. I had them custom rewound and its sounds incredible now.

So maybe its just a matter of taking those guts out, wiring it up with maybe some PAF's. Dont know.

But for now I may just leave well enough alone until any of the pots start crapping out (which I think was starting to happen..its been a few years since I played it)

 

[marcusnieman]

Do a search on this site for the 50's wiring mod - there are some great diagrams along with info on pots, caps, etc.

But remember that a Tokai's not a Gibson and there are certain qualities to each that may not be possible on the other.

My Edwards Jimmy Page with the coil splitting pots has more tonal possibilities (and it gets that Jimmy Page / Peter Green tone with relative ease) than any of my other Les Paul models - Tokai Reborn as well. I was only half kidding in my smart assed remark saying "should have bought the Edwards"

 

[Bunky]

Thanks marcusnieman, I'll look into that.

By the way, no offense taken.

Aside, isn't there another brand on that Tokai/edwards level.... I think the name is Dillon or Dillion? Know anything about them?

 

[marcusnieman]

Yup - go here:

http://www.dillionguitars.com/

They're Korean made but actually pretty decent guitars. Junior Watson has an endorsement deal with them - I've actually seen and heard him play his Dillion Goldtop - sounded **** good - but Junior could be plucking a cigar box guitar and make it sound like a million bucks.

 

[Bunky]

Thanks again.

I see that they are not exact with the body shapes/headstock....

funny how having certain patterns (the golden ratios?) make them look weird.
Horn too rounded...horn too sharp... yuck :wink:

Okay...I'm off of dillion

 

[japanstrat]

In my Greco I just had the standard pickups and the tone was pretty basic in the middle position so I put a DiMarzio breed like humbucker (that's made for Fender by DiMarzio for fat strats) in the bridge and the pole pieces don't line up that great but it has a good sound and I also put a Gotoh pickup in the neck and that sounded just bad.
So I thought I'll have to put the original Greco pickup back in the neck and leave the DiMarzio in the bridge, so I did that and now on the middle position I get that "sproingy out-of-phasey" sound that your talking about and I don't know why, probably the DiMarzio pickup is out of phase with the Greco pickup.
To me the combination of the Greco neck and DiMarzio bridge pickups sound great.
I think it's a bit similar to strats and the 2 and 4 positions and the knopfler quack.
I've had some pickup combinations that quack and others that lose all the quack with a pickup change.
Some pickup combinations just work but there are other ways to maybe get it with wiring mods.
Jimmy Page had his own wiring mod which is around the net.

 

[japanstrat]

Looks like I accidently got the Peter Green thing happening although I've got both the DiMarzio and Greco pickups wired for a normal LP setup with no out of phase the magnets must be out of phase probably due to the DiMarzio being made for Fender OEM.
The sound is very interesting in the middle position.
I've never heard Peter Green's stuff except for that "Albatross" thing which I don't really like that much and he played that on a Strat.
And I've never heard his version of his Black Magic Woman only the awful Santana version.

From another forum

Peter Greens Les Paul was NOT wired out-of-phase! It was magnetically out of phase i.e. the magnet in the neck-P.U. was north-south oriented whereas the bridge-P.U. was south-north oriented. It sounds strange, but I tried taking the neck-P.U. of one of my LPs out and turned the magnet around, put the P.U. back the other way around (polepieces closest to the bridge) and it nailed the sound totally!!! Hope my description makes sense.

The difference between magnetically and electronically out-of-phase is that magnetically out-of-phase makes the tone get more and more nasal as you move up the neck (the brighter notes, the more nasal or out-of-phase sound).

 

[DaveWW]

Didn't he just put his pickup back upside down and discover that he liked the result........?

 

[Bunky]

Thats interesting guys.

When I had some single coils rewound the person that did it (he does great work so it didn't bother me that he messed up) I noticed a peculiar sound.

What happened was he put 5 of the pole pieces in correctly but on one the magnet was reversed for the other 5. After I installed it and played it I was....."hmmm this can't be right". Basically while the other strings sounded "normal", the string with the reversed magnet sounded "hollow" and not as strong output.
Don't know if this is the same effect, though..

So, I noticed the pups were stating to get a bit microphonic that last time I was playing this guitar a few years ago. So I potted them yesterday.
Funny, just as I was about to put the rear pup back in the bezel, I took a moment to decide whether I should put it in backwards. Maybe I'll try it.

Also...grrrrrrr, I bought new graphtech saddles and snapped one in half while trying to get the screw end into its hole. Now I got to buy a whole new set. But know that I have a stew mac catalog that they send me with the order, they have new abr, nashville and gotoh tune-o-matics for a lot less than what the saddles themselves cost.

All thats left then is to get a new nut installed and I have my Love Rock back in action

 

[japanstrat]

Peter Green turned his bridge pickup upside down but that doesn't have any effect.
He said he did it because he watched clapton play on only the bridge pickup at a gig and he wanted to throw the neck pickup away and not use it so he took it out but then he put it back accidently upside down because he knew nothing about pickups.
Someone tested Peter Greens pickups, I think Gary Moore has Peter Greens guitar and he took it in to have something done and the magnetic polarity of the neck pickup was opposite to the bridge pickup where usually the neck and bridge are the same magnetic polarity.
Peter Green said he didn't do anything to the pickups he only put one back accidently upside down so the neck pickup must have come from Gibson with the opposite neck pickup magnetic polarity.
Very rare but it happens.
Any way the end result is an out of phase sound on the middle pickup selector with both pickups selected.
There is another way to get the out of phase sound with just wiring changes like the Jimmy Page out of phase sound but it sounds a bit different to the Peter Green out of phase sound.
The Jimmy Page 'out of phase' is electrically out of phase and the Peter Green 'out of phase' is magnetically out of phase.
This works for single coils so I suppose it works for humbuckers if you hold a pickup directly over the top of another pickup they will repel each other if they both have the same magnetic polarity but if one pickup has a different magnetic polarity they will attract.

Changing the magnetic polarity of a humbucker for the magnetically out of phase sound.
Just take out the magnet like on this page and just turn it around (flip it over 180 degrees) and put it back in the pickup.
http://blacklinefish.blogspot.com/

Reversing the two wires of a pickup will electrically change the phase with respect to the other pickup like the Jimmy Page out of phase does.