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LS230 vs LS135
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HeadCreeps
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Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: LS230 vs LS135 Reply with quote

When comparing both specs from the Tokai catalog the only differences I can spot between these two models are:
-flamed top vs normal top
-black beauty caps vs orange drops

but the LS230 is almost twice as expensive. What am I missing ?
Are the woods different, or is the manufacture quality any different, or... ?
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PMVF
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Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:08 am    Post subject: LS230 Reply with quote

I Have a LS230 and as far as I know the big difference is the type of wood used that is of higher grade in the LS230. Also the Flame Top is very expensive and justifies the difference. Mine is one piece neck and back and on the LS135 they might not always use this. Also the Black Beauties are very expensive. All put together makes the different price tag.

What you should take in consideration is that there are no two guitars alike and a LS135 might sound better then a given LS230, but the opposite might be also truth. However, if you buy a LS135 you wont regret, it's a top quality guitar also but the LS230 might give you a boost, at least to the eye.
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togps
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Joined: 21 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: LS230 vs LS135 Reply with quote

HeadCreeps wrote:
When comparing both specs from the Tokai catalog the only differences I can spot between these two models are:
-flamed top vs normal top
-black beauty caps vs orange drops

but the LS230 is almost twice as expensive. What am I missing ?
Are the woods different, or is the manufacture quality any different, or... ?


Maybe I try to answer with a similar question.
Gibson R8 vs R9 ??? What is here different? Is it worth to pay almost twice?

Note:
    R8~LS135
    R9~LS230

Exactly same specs.
Correct me if I'm wrong
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bruno
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Joined: 19 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: LS230 Reply with quote

PMVF this is bruno, you probably know me better as "riscado" from forumusica, just to correct you on one small detail...

LS-135's are always one piece backs... not just occasionally! Always. actually the only difference between a ls-135 and your beautiful ls-230 is the top and the caps...

togps analogy is absolutly correct, as usual!

e j? agora parab?ns pela excelente guitarra que compraste, e que fa?as mts horas de boa m?sica com ela

PMVF wrote:
I Have a LS230 and as far as I know the big difference is the type of wood used that is of higher grade in the LS230. Also the Flame Top is very expensive and justifies the difference. Mine is one piece neck and back and on the LS135 they might not always use this. Also the Black Beauties are very expensive. All put together makes the different price tag.

What you should take in consideration is that there are no two guitars alike and a LS135 might sound better then a given LS230, but the opposite might be also truth. However, if you buy a LS135 you wont regret, it's a top quality guitar also but the LS230 might give you a boost, at least to the eye.
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Roe
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the 230 hasn't got honduras mahogny
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Jamieh
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roe wrote:
the 230 hasn't got honduras mahogny


Yes - that, as I understand it, is the main difference.

I am no expert in woods but Honduras Mahogany is a lighter, but extremely high grade and very expensive mahogany. It is this that makes the LS230 surprisingly lightweight but still retaining all the ballsy tone of a "Les Paul" - it is also this that makes the LS230 very expensive as the wood is very expensive and hard to source, especially one piece of this size and consistancy.

One of the things I love about Tokai guitars is that they really do make an effort to use really nice bits of wood!

As mentioned above, the fancy flame tops on LS230s - as yes they really are beautiful - are also expensive!
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bruno
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamieh, the 230 doesn't have honduras mahogany...

only the 380 has it!
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jhd230
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am new to the forum and Tokai guitars. I recently picked up a new 230. My guess is that it is honduras and not african mahog. The grain is much tighter - almost alder like, which is more honduras. Just me speculating, but it appears that beyond the pups and a jacaranda board, the difference between the 380 and the 230 is in the time spent matching the woods for tone. Tapping the materials can help match woods for optimum tone, but it takes time and money. If you just grab and go then you get the luck of the draw. Why some LPs sound great and others just so-so. That said I am completely sold on the 230. I have owned and regularly played several gibsons - Heritage 82 elite, Historic Goldtop, His 59R - and the Tok out performs them all for less than half the price. Anyone comtemplating a LP and not considering a Tokai is doing themselves a disservice.
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bruno
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen a couple of 230, none had honduras mahogany, sorry it's just a plain plank of khaya (african mahogany), just like the ls-135, ls-145s, lc-180, lc-185...

not that the wood isn't good, it is good, and some even have some figuring, but definetly not honduras... I think togps can, and has indeed confirmed this already.
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togps
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right Bruno. I agree.
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jhd230
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a plain plank of khaya? Both hond and afr mahog are considered superior luthier tone woods, to imply that one is superior to the other is just wrong - well unless your in marketing and trying to focus on minor differences to rationalize a price difference. I agree that hond quality is much more consistent (density, figure, color) than afr - primarily due to the consistent growth environment for the hond. However, a superior piece of afr is just as toneful as a superior piece of hond. Manufacturers such as Carvin use hond for all their mahog guitars including their low end products. Others such as Collings simply state mahog for their tone wood. I read this to mean that either hond or afr is used in the manufacture of Collings guitars depending upon what is available, while Carvin is trying to imply something special when in fact they know there is little difference when quality materials are used. The reason I am led to suspect that is the case with the Tok is because I have opened up my 230 and the bare wood has the brown coloration normally associated with hond.
A disclaimer, this is just my opinion of course and I do not mean to be argumentative. As long as it is not luan or holes drilled in the lower bout (ala Gibson's current low end LPs) then I am ok with either one. That said the discussion of mahog does not explain the price difference asked in the original question.
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Big Willie Style
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I inquired with Guitar Universe about the two, Yoshi told me the only big difference was the flamed maple top vs regular maple. I was going to buy the 135 because I couldn't justify that much extra cash for a little flame. Luckily, I found a used LS150 in mint condition.
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sneakyjapan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Honduras M. is going the way of Brazilian Rosewood...until just a few years ago, a lot of Japanese makers were using H.M regularly...now it seems to be used on high end models only. I have a beautiful example of H.M. on my Fernandes P-Project Akira Wada artist model...a really gorgeous piece and oil finished so the wood really stands out. I`m certain I wouldn`t hear the difference between the two types of mahogany, but I do know African is now as widely used as H.M was before... and I`d wager because the price of H.M has gone up makers over here are now commonly using the African variety...which will some day more than likely...be pushed to the limit as well.
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bruno
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you read properly, you'll notice no one implied one was better over the other, I own a ls-145s which is made of khaya, I'm quite happy with it!

The only thing mentioned was that only the 380 used honduras (well actually the sg-155/es-155/lss-175 also use it but that's another story) and the other didn't, I don't recall anyone implying one was better over the other.

However like I told you, and will tell you over and over again if necessary, ls-230's do not have honduras mahogany.

jhd230 wrote:
Just a plain plank of khaya? Both hond and afr mahog are considered superior luthier tone woods, to imply that one is superior to the other is just wrong - well unless your in marketing and trying to focus on minor differences to rationalize a price difference. I agree that hond quality is much more consistent (density, figure, color) than afr - primarily due to the consistent growth environment for the hond. However, a superior piece of afr is just as toneful as a superior piece of hond. Manufacturers such as Carvin use hond for all their mahog guitars including their low end products. Others such as Collings simply state mahog for their tone wood. I read this to mean that either hond or afr is used in the manufacture of Collings guitars depending upon what is available, while Carvin is trying to imply something special when in fact they know there is little difference when quality materials are used. The reason I am led to suspect that is the case with the Tok is because I have opened up my 230 and the bare wood has the brown coloration normally associated with hond.
A disclaimer, this is just my opinion of course and I do not mean to be argumentative. As long as it is not luan or holes drilled in the lower bout (ala Gibson's current low end LPs) then I am ok with either one. That said the discussion of mahog does not explain the price difference asked in the original question.
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luis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess this LS230 model is the evolution of LS200,the second model in range it was avalaible until '04.It does not make any sense being Honduras mahogany as far as 320/380 are.I was lucky to try 5 Tokais from all ranges and you can notice the different,being the 320 the best.If you want the best pick up a 320/380(320s are not avalaible at used marked so the choice is a 380 which I?m willing to try).If you want a very good guitar take the 150/230.How much better is a 150/200/230 over a 320/380?Well, I don?t know but if you play them at the same time my bet is you?ll pick higher model,more resonat an "live".I love 320s,really and I?d put any against Historic models from the other brand and are at least on a par if not better in any case. I own one 320 which shines and never sell and I?ve been offered to buy when I let it to play(several local live players included).
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