Why the weight differences ??

For a relative new guy I got to wondering the following question:: Why do the Tokai LS guitars not require weight relieving construction like the Gibson L.P. guitars ?? Is the African Mahogany lighter (which the LS100Q uses) Maybe thinner bodies ?? Is Gibson using a heavier wood then the did so many years back. Lighter guage wire (kidding there)

Fill me in on the scoop; no pun intended. :wink:

Scooping out any amount of wood just for weight relief purposes is anathema to most people who want a true copy of an original LP (see Gibson's own '58 and '59 Historic reissues). They're more painful to play live - there's a few people on here (ned included?) who have suffered back problems most likely caused by playing LPs on stage for years - but the arguments for sustain and tone tend to offset the potential for crumpling your spine to those who love the LP.

So in answer to your question: it's not that they don't require the weight relief, it's just that some people prefer them to be faithful to the originals and will overlook the issue of weight. I'm one of them!

Agreed...after the last jam I had with Mick my back was ruined for the rest of the weekend....but I'll happy limp around like a gimp to keep that tone. 8)

Gibson was also using poorer quality mahogany that was very heavy some guitars were up too 14 pounds and a lot of people complained, that is why they started weight relieving. I have heard that Gibson now sources higher grade mahogany from Tokai......kinda ironic wouldn't you say.... :wink:

Mick

Ozeshin said:

Agreed...after the last jam I had with Mick my back was ruined for the rest of the weekend....but I'll happy limp around like a gimp to keep that tone. 8)

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Wuss.....

Mick

leadguitar_323 said:

Gibson was also using poorer quality mahogany that was very heavy some guitars were up too 14 pounds and a lot of people complained, that is why they started weight relieving. I have heard that Gibson now sources higher grade mahogany from Tokai......kinda ironic wouldn't you say.... :wink:

Mick

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Perhaps Gibson could just go the whole hog and source the whole guitar from Tokai?

Darren

markcus58 said:

Why do the Tokai LS guitars not require weight relieving

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I think weight relieving is a complete aberration and any LP do not "require" weight relieving.

However my "LS" weights like a dead body. That's the deal with LPs. It's a heavy guitar but you get sustain and a very nice tone.

If you want a lighter body or a chambered guitar you don't want a LP.

If you want a lighter body or a chambered guitar you don't want a LP.

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Nah, I don't want a different guitar, I like mine quite well thanks.
I was just curious what drove Gibson to weight relieve, chamber or what ever when most (?) other LP makers do not. My Tokai does not seem heavy, but I've no scale accurate enough to indicate ounces so I cannot say what it's true weight is.

So in answer to your question: it's not that they don't require the weight relief, it's just that some people prefer them to be faithful to the originals and will overlook the issue of weight.

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If this statement is true, then the Tokai's are indeed heavier than a Gibson ?? Guess I gotta get a decent scale and see where this one fits in the range of LP's whatever the construction style or maker.

If this statement is true, then the Tokai's are indeed heavier than a Gibson ?? Guess I gotta get a decent scale and see where this one fits in the range of LP's whatever the construction style or maker.

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Such a generalisation is just plain silly, it is extremely hard to find 2 LP's that weigh the same, ask MIJ vintage he weighs all of his. I have a pile of LP's and none weigh the same weight and my 2 Tokai's are, one heavy and one light. There will be way more Gibbo's that are heavier than a Tokai especially throughout the Norlin era where quality went out the window in favour of the mighty dollar, there's some real boat anchors in that lot. My 2 favourite LP's to play are my Tokai Goldtop which is light and my Greco which is about a pound heavier, both great guitars just different weights.

Mick

Those holes are like the diet coke :lol: I want a coke but with no sugar, no caffeine and no cola. A rational answer would be "are you really sure that you want a coke?". Not nowadays. They brew a potion, they call it coke and everybody must believe that it is coke. ********.

Boy do I agree with that. I grew up drinking the real cokes and signed off years ago. I aint putting that junk down my throat unless it's got a heavy shot of Venezuelan RUM that needs colored.

:evil: So all I learned was that Tokai may be heaver or lighter than a Lester that is hollowed by some method. It's a pot luck issue, like it or not what you get is what you got. Thank gawd my back aint broke down yet, but I'm a few years away from 60 yet so I aint holding my breath. And Gibson is leading lots of rats to dump $$ over the cliff due to a few holy grail's made 50 years ago. How have they fooled people so long ? Just look what happened to Chevy with the rise of Honda/Toyota. Why doesn't the guitar public wise up like the auto buyers ?? Stalwarts to the bitter end, **** the torpedoes, I'll except whatever they sell and pay whatever they ask for whatever junk they shove my way. That my friends just aint the America I know and love.

I'm going to say something slightly controversial in that I still think that a proper Gibson does have a certain something that my Tokai does not.
Not sure what it is, perhaps it's due partly to the less than strict quality control they have going that makes each one slightly unique

But I've played assorted LP's from Gibson, epiphone, burny, greko, Tokai: some have been chambered or weight relieved, most haven't and I don't think there have been two that have been closer than half a pound in terms of weight. They really do vary a huge amount.

My Tokai is just under nine pounds and despite being a scrawny old git I havw no problem playing it for a two hour gig, and I hardly stay still on stage.

I'm going to say something slightly controversial in that I still think that a proper Gibson does have a certain something that my Tokai does not.

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Yep, a higher price tag and Gibson on the headstock......

Mick

Yep, a higher price tag and Gibson on the headstock......

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If not for Gibson, the followers, copiers, replicators, others would not be here. Sure they design and make there own good guitars but let's not forget where the best designs started from.

So Tokai and such have created their market by assembling a good / great product for a better price.. Classic mousetrap economics. But who killed the first mouse, many more mouses afterwards, revised and upgraded the trap through the years both good and bad, not afraid to try and sometimes fail towards the end of creating their own better product, and making a bussiness profit to keep it all going. All the while others are clammering to shave a slice off the pie ? Again, mousetrap economics.
I don't bash Gibson or their success. They are the front runners. Nor do I bash the supporting team members; their place is much needed. The world guitar requirements are huge and this process has created a vast number of great products from different global regions. Who benefits from all this ??? WE GUITAR PLAYERS DO.
I think bashing is undeserved unless some person/bussiness is purposefully ripping the people off (Fakai). If a supporter wants to advance the guitar they prefer, that is great and just. List the benefits and unique elements resulting in something they like or love. Praise them to no end.
Long live Tokai.

I don't bash Gibson or their success.

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I'm not "bashing" Gibson actually i think for over 20 years they bashed themselves by producing a product with only one aim, profit, and they didn't give a **** that their company was being propped up with high priced rubbish being sold to most people that didn't know any better, trading of their good name. I still think they produce an extremely overpriced product, with CNC and modern technology there is no excuse for the prices they charge. Now i know they are now producing some very good instruments but i still can't justify the prices....thank God for MIJ guitars and fussy Japanese builders... :wink:

Mick

here's a sample of some LP types that I currently own, and a few that I have sold, along with the corresponding weights.

I weigh all of my solid body guitars on a calibrated digital scale, which is accurate to within 1/10 an oz.

Weighing a guitar is a bit different than weighing other types of items but all of my weights are pretty accurate AFA weighing a guitar.

I make a valid attempt to find out what a guitar weighs, before I purchase it.
I often ask for photos of (body) wood end grain to determine the growth ring size
Of course this will only work for stained/unpainted examples
I am interested in growth ring size but I am also interested in it's orientation in relation to the instrument.
For example quarter sawn, rift sawn, or flat/plain sawn lumber.

Generally, my better LP types are in the 8.75 lb. to 9.00 lb. range.
This seems to be a 'sweet spot' so to speak AFA general weights for LPs in my experience.

I some times make exceptions for weights outside of that rough guideline.

I have had one or two in the 10 lb. range that were very good but that's not 'normal' from my experience.

EDIT: IMO there is no need to force a 'boat anchor' upon yourself just to have a good, or even a great sounding Les Paul.
It's a choice one makes to do, or not to do.
I make the choice not to play a boat anchor



~1985 Burny RLC @ 8 lb. 15 oz. (ALL mahogany )

~1985 Burny RLG @ 8 lb. 15 oz. (this is my "last one standing" Les Paul 8) )

~1988 Burny RLG @ 8 lb. 14 oz.

~1985 Burny RLG @ 8 lb. 10 oz. (currently for sale)

1982 Greco MC/EG- gold top @ 8 lb. 13 oz.

~2000 Bacchus BLS-120S @ 8 lb. 14 oz.

~2000 Bacchus BLS-59 @ 8 lb. 13 oz.

2000 Tokai LS-320 @ 9 lb. 3 oz. (weighed without pick guard/not installed )

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~1985 Burny RLG @ 9 lb. 4 oz. (recently sold)

1989 Greco MC/EG - plain top @ 8 lb. 8 oz. (recently sold)

1996 Orville - gold top @ 8 lb. 7 oz. (sold to TF member)

Yep, a higher price tag and Gibson on the headstock......

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...and don't forget the holes :lol:

leadguitar_323 said:

I'm not "bashing" Gibson actually i think for over 20 years they bashed themselves

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I agree!

I will admit that Gibson do come up with some less than great ideas at times, and they are really expensive for your average guitarist, then again have you seen the price of a Hamer or a PRS these days?
I actually think that Gibson have been pretty good for the last twenty years. Much better than the junk they turned out in the seventies and eighties.
I'd actually like to see more PRS type guitars made by people like Tokai.
I'd quite dig that sort of build quality and features for a more realistic price.

Derby Ant said:

I'd actually like to see more PRS type guitars made by people like Tokai.
I'd quite dig that sort of build quality and features for a more realistic price.

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how about this?

Diamond said:

Derby Ant said:

I'd actually like to see more PRS type guitars made by people like Tokai.
I'd quite dig that sort of build quality and features for a more realistic price.

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how about this?

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Yep, that would do it.
Although I've rarely seem them for sale and when they are the price is just a little too close to the real thing, or more to the point more than the second hand value of the real thing.
If you can get a Tokai MIJ LP standard for ?600 why can't you get a Tokai PRS for similar money?