What is up with Japanese nitro?

[soundcreation]

Funny.....my Fujigen poly Greco SS500 super real has about the thinnest poly finish I've ever seen. My Super real EGC1000 seems very very thin as well.

Maybe you're JV is poly and you can't tell the difference?

Sounds like you've chosen some lemons Koubayashi. There is an easy solution for you though..if you really think they are that bad....just don't buy them.

 

[Koubayashi]

Funny.....my Fujigen poly Greco SS500 super real has about the thinnest poly finish I've ever seen. My Super real EGC1000 seems very very thin as well.

Maybe you're JV is poly and you can't tell the difference?

Sounds like you've chosen some lemons Koubayashi. There is an easy solution for you though..if you really think they are that bad....just don't buy them.

I think I just require far more from guitars than you do.

Its not very easy to choose if one buy guitars online on for example Yahoo...
But I'd say that the good/bad guitar rate is about 50% on Japanese.

 

[soundcreation]

Funny.....my Fujigen poly Greco SS500 super real has about the thinnest poly finish I've ever seen. My Super real EGC1000 seems very very thin as well.

Maybe you're JV is poly and you can't tell the difference?

Sounds like you've chosen some lemons Koubayashi. There is an easy solution for you though..if you really think they are that bad....just don't buy them.

I think I just require far more from guitars than you do.

Its not very easy to choose if one buy guitars online on for example Yahoo...
But I'd say that the good/bad guitar rate is about 50% on Japanese.

That's just a meaningless statement. 50% of what? High end MIJ strats? Les Pauls? Teles? Mid range? Low end? Are you comparing custom shop fenders to low end MIJ fenders and coming up with your opinions?

You don't make any sense.

Fact is....comparing specs on MIJ vs MIA at a SINGLE price point the MIJ will offer better specs than the MIA. From high end navigator comparing to the custom shop fenders and gibsons...to bacchus' hand made line compared to USA factory examples....you get more with MIJ.

I don't get you. You always seem to be putting down MIJ guitars. Fine. If you don't think they are as good as something else like MIA the good for you. Enjoy all the fender's and gibsons you want.

But why do you bother to come here and make up silly threads complaining about factors where it is just so obvious MIJ is far superior to MIA? Such as quality of finish and consistency in manufacturing? Gibson would KILL to be able to produce at the level of quality of ESP.

I mean seriously...if you think you "require far more from guitars" than me...well....you're dreaming if you think you're going to find that in any MIA guitar over an equivalent MIJ guitar.

But like I said...whatever man...buy whatever you want. Just don't start idiotic threads with absolutely nonsensical arguments.

 

[Koubayashi]

Funny.....my Fujigen poly Greco SS500 super real has about the thinnest poly finish I've ever seen. My Super real EGC1000 seems very very thin as well.

Maybe you're JV is poly and you can't tell the difference?

Sounds like you've chosen some lemons Koubayashi. There is an easy solution for you though..if you really think they are that bad....just don't buy them.

I think I just require far more from guitars than you do.

Its not very easy to choose if one buy guitars online on for example Yahoo...
But I'd say that the good/bad guitar rate is about 50% on Japanese.

That's just a meaningless statement. 50% of what? High end MIJ strats? Les Pauls? Teles? Mid range? Low end? Are you comparing custom shop fenders to low end MIJ fenders and coming up with your opinions?

You don't make any sense.

Fact is....comparing specs on MIJ vs MIA at a SINGLE price point the MIJ will offer better specs than the MIA. From high end navigator comparing to the custom shop fenders and gibsons...to bacchus' hand made line compared to USA factory examples....you get more with MIJ.

I don't get you. You always seem to be putting down MIJ guitars. Fine. If you don't think they are as good as something else like MIA the good for you. Enjoy all the fender's and gibsons you want.

But why do you bother to come here and make up silly threads complaining about factors where it is just so obvious MIJ is far superior to MIA? Such as quality of finish and consistency in manufacturing? Gibson would KILL to be able to produce at the level of quality of ESP.

I mean seriously...if you think you "require far more from guitars" than me...well....you're dreaming if you think you're going to find that in any MIA guitar over an equivalent MIJ guitar.

But like I said...whatever man...buy whatever you want. Just don't start idiotic threads with absolutely nonsensical arguments.

Why do you bring up American made instruments over and over?
This is not about American instruments. Nor is it about modern instruments like ESP either.

Narrow down and stick to the subject.

The fact that there are Japanese guitars from the late 70's/80's which are finished in thick goo is enough.
If the nitro is chemically altered in some way, then they did a horrible modification cause not only does it behave like plastic it also feels and look like plastic.

No matter the hype of Japanese guitars from the "golden era" many of them have thick finishes feeling like poly more than nitro.
Furthermore, I am aware that some here need to maintain and even amplify this hype and myth cause they sell and deal with those guitar.

 

[jacco]

I just don't get some of you. Fredrik has a load of MIJ guitars passing through his hands every year. IMO his observations are meaningful and interesting.
Ok, maybe the conclusions made from the observations are rough and not specific enough and yes, not very scientific, but still: good observations. Is the reality check too hard to handle?

MY experience with the Greco Super Real era is that the nitro feels in between poly and present day nitro. So more plastic like than I would want it to be. Tokai nitro from the same era feels quite different. It's softer as is Burny nitro.

 

[Koubayashi]

I just don't get some of you. Fredrik has a load of MIJ guitars passing through his hands every year. IMO his observations are meaningful and interesting.
Ok, maybe the conclusions made from the observations are rough and not specific enough and yes, not very scientific, but still: good observations. Is the reality check too hard to handle?

MY experience with the Greco Super Real era is that the nitro feels in between poly and present day nitro. So more plastic like than I would want it to be. Tokai nitro from the same era feels quite different. It's softer as is Burny nitro.

Exactly, and I am also pointing out that some are indeed very good and has very good finish.
I could work with scientific methods and do proper research cause I sure have the material for an empiric study BUT that is what I do in my every day life so I will not add to my work load.

I agree with you regarding the difference in feeling between Greco, Tokai and Burny. I would say that Tokai has the best average. Also, Tokai nitro has more of the "good old" feel and vibe. Greco on the other hand are the ones that feel most "plastic".

 

[villager]

watch yourself fredrick, i dont appreciate your comment below

''Furthermore, I am aware that some here need to maintain and even amplify this hype and myth cause they sell and deal with those guitar.''

since i am the only one that applies to in this thread apart from you, then i assume you are accusing me of the above practice... if not i suggest you make that VERY clear..

please dont ever accuse me of hyping something to sell it, i do not operate like that as you should well know!!!

my point is simply that there are different types of nitro, some reactive, some thin some thick, some not reactive, just because something does not dissolve in acetone does not for me give 100% proof of the composition of the tested substance,

if Jacco has tested and blacklighted one of my greco 1800's then he is entitled to propose it may be something other than nitro, personally I have never tested any guitar with acetone, and i do not own a blacklight.

I am sure there are many types of finish used for MIJ guitars, for me if the catalogue says lacquer, then thats enough, I appreciate there are deviations from the catalogue specs, but I have to ask why? if you have a nitro spraying line set up for a certain level of guitar, (say the 1800's) then why on earth would you spray an EGF-1800 in any other way? and i dont believe that there were times when the nitro ''ran out''

so, my conclusion is that there were different batches of nitro made up, and these have different properties, thats what my main point is, so please dont start accusing me of any hyping, misleading, lying, whatever you want to call it, in the end you are accusing me of poor business practise, which I will not tolerate, i hope i have made myself clear...

 

[soundcreation]

Funny.....my Fujigen poly Greco SS500 super real has about the thinnest poly finish I've ever seen. My Super real EGC1000 seems very very thin as well.

Maybe you're JV is poly and you can't tell the difference?

Sounds like you've chosen some lemons Koubayashi. There is an easy solution for you though..if you really think they are that bad....just don't buy them.

I think I just require far more from guitars than you do.

Its not very easy to choose if one buy guitars online on for example Yahoo...
But I'd say that the good/bad guitar rate is about 50% on Japanese.

That's just a meaningless statement. 50% of what? High end MIJ strats? Les Pauls? Teles? Mid range? Low end? Are you comparing custom shop fenders to low end MIJ fenders and coming up with your opinions?

You don't make any sense.

Fact is....comparing specs on MIJ vs MIA at a SINGLE price point the MIJ will offer better specs than the MIA. From high end navigator comparing to the custom shop fenders and gibsons...to bacchus' hand made line compared to USA factory examples....you get more with MIJ.

I don't get you. You always seem to be putting down MIJ guitars. Fine. If you don't think they are as good as something else like MIA the good for you. Enjoy all the fender's and gibsons you want.

But why do you bother to come here and make up silly threads complaining about factors where it is just so obvious MIJ is far superior to MIA? Such as quality of finish and consistency in manufacturing? Gibson would KILL to be able to produce at the level of quality of ESP.

I mean seriously...if you think you "require far more from guitars" than me...well....you're dreaming if you think you're going to find that in any MIA guitar over an equivalent MIJ guitar.

But like I said...whatever man...buy whatever you want. Just don't start idiotic threads with absolutely nonsensical arguments.

Why do you bring up American made instruments over and over?
This is not about American instruments. Nor is it about modern instruments like ESP either.

Narrow down and stick to the subject.

The fact that there are Japanese guitars from the late 70's/80's which are finished in thick goo is enough.
If the nitro is chemically altered in some way, then they did a horrible modification cause not only does it behave like plastic it also feels and look like plastic.

No matter the hype of Japanese guitars from the "golden era" many of them have thick finishes feeling like poly more than nitro.
Furthermore, I am aware that some here need to maintain and even amplify this hype and myth cause they sell and deal with those guitar.

Because you're the one who seems to have a hard on for them. In other threads you've made it pretty clear you think fender and gibson are superior, and you seem to go out of your way to point out all these "flaws" in MIJ but never mention flaws in comparison to what.

And sorry but you never established the parameters of the discussion to early 80's MIJ. Your only doing that now that I've called you out on it and you don't have an answer for the modern guitars. Read the title of you're thread and the contents of your first post. Show me where you limit the discussion to only 80's MIJ.

So what is your idea of "good" nitro then? 60's fenders? You mean the ones that were sealed in fullerplast before they sprayed nitro?

As I've said before...My fujigen greco les paul has a beautiful nitro finish. Not the thinnest but not what you are making it out to be.

I know for sure there is a lot of MIJ hype that gets a bit silly but it's almost like you feel the need to be the opposite of that here on this forum. Which is just as silly.

As I said before.....if it really bothers you so much then DON'T buy them.

 

[soundcreation]

I just don't get some of you. Fredrik has a load of MIJ guitars passing through his hands every year. IMO his observations are meaningful and interesting.
Ok, maybe the conclusions made from the observations are rough and not specific enough and yes, not very scientific, but still: good observations. Is the reality check too hard to handle?

MY experience with the Greco Super Real era is that the nitro feels in between poly and present day nitro. So more plastic like than I would want it to be. Tokai nitro from the same era feels quite different. It's softer as is Burny nitro.

Actually I would say if the observations are "rough" and "not specific enough" and "not very scientific"...well...that pretty much makes them bad observations...but hey...that's just me being logical.

So what "present day" nitro doesn't feel like "plastic"? Cause I know gibson's nitro is full of plasticizers. Fender doesn't even MAKE a guitar that doesn't have poly sealer.

I have no problem with legit criticisms of MIJ guitars. But nothing he has posted fit that description. If someone is going to say that super reals have caked on nitro that is mixed with poly, and then provide NO evidence as to why...well..I don't see the need to take that seriously.

 

[JVsearch]

The fact that there is so much piling on over somebody that has different opinions to the preferred view is quite worrying.

 

[Koubayashi]

I just don't get some of you. Fredrik has a load of MIJ guitars passing through his hands every year. IMO his observations are meaningful and interesting.
Ok, maybe the conclusions made from the observations are rough and not specific enough and yes, not very scientific, but still: good observations. Is the reality check too hard to handle?

MY experience with the Greco Super Real era is that the nitro feels in between poly and present day nitro. So more plastic like than I would want it to be. Tokai nitro from the same era feels quite different. It's softer as is Burny nitro.

Actually I would say if the observations are "rough" and "not specific enough" and "not very scientific"...well...that pretty much makes them bad observations...but hey...that's just me being logical.

So what "present day" nitro doesn't feel like "plastic"? Cause I know gibson's nitro is full of plasticizers. Fender doesn't even MAKE a guitar that doesn't have poly sealer.

I have no problem with legit criticisms of MIJ guitars. But nothing he has posted fit that description. If someone is going to say that super reals have caked on nitro that is mixed with poly, and then provide NO evidence as to why...well..I don't see the need to take that seriously.

Do you know how scientific research is conducted?
Please, tell us which approach you would use to investigate and shed light on the matter of finsih on guitars.

Furthermore, what does modern Fender, Gibson or ESP have to do with Japanese guitars from app. 1979-1985?
Over and over I read that these guitars feel like the real deal. Well, then make sure your argues are coherent with the common idea. There is a discrepency between makers, years and maker-year. What is the focus? Were the Super Reals clones on 2011 Gibson R9 or Lesters from the late 50's?

 

[jacco]

I just don't get some of you. Fredrik has a load of MIJ guitars passing through his hands every year. IMO his observations are meaningful and interesting.
Ok, maybe the conclusions made from the observations are rough and not specific enough and yes, not very scientific, but still: good observations. Is the reality check too hard to handle?

MY experience with the Greco Super Real era is that the nitro feels in between poly and present day nitro. So more plastic like than I would want it to be. Tokai nitro from the same era feels quite different. It's softer as is Burny nitro.

Actually I would say if the observations are "rough" and "not specific enough" and "not very scientific"...well...that pretty much makes them bad observations...but hey...that's just me being logical.

So what "present day" nitro doesn't feel like "plastic"? Cause I know gibson's nitro is full of plasticizers. Fender doesn't even MAKE a guitar that doesn't have poly sealer.

I have no problem with legit criticisms of MIJ guitars. But nothing he has posted fit that description. If someone is going to say that super reals have caked on nitro that is mixed with poly, and then provide NO evidence as to why...well..I don't see the need to take that seriously.

Maybe you should read better.
I wrote that Fredriks observations are meaningful and interesting.
I also wrote that maybe HIS CONCLUSIONS are rough, not specific enough and not very scientific. I think logic has abonded you or you're biased when you turn this into your conclusion: his observations are bad.

What does the nitro question have to do with Gibson or Fender? I can't follow your logic here. When I say present day nitro I mean the nitro that has been applicated on my refinished TE-50 & ST-55 buy my luthier. You know the stuff you can buy from sellers like Reranch. Hey and it's MY observation that Super Reals feel more plastic like and Tokai's don't. Maybe you can share your experience with Super Reals?

As JVsearch indicates it's also funny that you interpret Fredrik observations as critisism towards MIJ guitars. What does that say about you?

 

[Cali Girl]

Actually I would say if the observations are "rough" and "not specific enough" and "not very scientific"...well...that pretty much makes them bad observations...but hey...that's just me being logical.

So what "present day" nitro doesn't feel like "plastic"? Cause I know gibson's nitro is full of plasticizers. Fender doesn't even MAKE a guitar that doesn't have poly sealer.

I have no problem with legit criticisms of MIJ guitars. But nothing he has posted fit that description. If someone is going to say that super reals have caked on nitro that is mixed with poly, and then provide NO evidence as to why...well..I don't see the need to take that seriously.

Agreed with all of the above.

The issue raised in this thread is a subjective opinion with no hard data or objective measurements to support it.

So how thick are these MIJ finishes? How thick are Gibson and PRS and Hamer finishes? How much do they check? What is their formula and process for finishing guitars? Who do they buy their nitro from? Will we ever really know any of this? Probably not.

ps - scientific research involves measurements, numbers, and a large sample size in double-blind conditions... all lacking in this debate...

 

[jacco]

Cali; what a load of BS. How in God's name can you ask from a MIJ dealer to supply scientific comparative data on finish thickness & type?? Are you mad?

 

[Koubayashi]

Actually I would say if the observations are "rough" and "not specific enough" and "not very scientific"...well...that pretty much makes them bad observations...but hey...that's just me being logical.

So what "present day" nitro doesn't feel like "plastic"? Cause I know gibson's nitro is full of plasticizers. Fender doesn't even MAKE a guitar that doesn't have poly sealer.

I have no problem with legit criticisms of MIJ guitars. But nothing he has posted fit that description. If someone is going to say that super reals have caked on nitro that is mixed with poly, and then provide NO evidence as to why...well..I don't see the need to take that seriously.

Agreed with all of the above.

The issue raised in this thread is a subjective opinion with no hard data or objective measurements to support it.

So how thick are these MIJ finishes? How thick are Gibson and PRS and Hamer finishes? How much do they check? What is their formula and process for finishing guitars? Who do they buy their nitro from? Will we ever really know any of this? Probably not.

ps - scientific research involves measurements, numbers, and a large sample size in double-blind conditions... all lacking in this debate...

Please elaborate on the research part.
Seems very few here would be able to conduct a professional research so it would be good to elaborate it a bit.

Now, here is my corpus:
Roughly 1500 Japanese guitars of various models

Result: about half are **** and the other half is good
Within each half there are about 5-10% radicals in both directions.

Finding: There is no consequence and the quality on the finish vary from fabric to fabric and even model to model

Conclusion: Well, not many Japanese made guitars' finish feels like and have the mojo of a real vintage guitar.

To make a decent corpus study (quantitative) you'll need about 300 objects to study. I doubt that many on this forum has had that many Japanese guitars so who will have argues which are scientifically based to oppose?

 

[Koubayashi]

watch yourself fredrick, i dont appreciate your comment below

''Furthermore, I am aware that some here need to maintain and even amplify this hype and myth cause they sell and deal with those guitar.''

since i am the only one that applies to in this thread apart from you, then i assume you are accusing me of the above practice... if not i suggest you make that VERY clear..

please dont ever accuse me of hyping something to sell it, i do not operate like that as you should well know!!!

my point is simply that there are different types of nitro, some reactive, some thin some thick, some not reactive, just because something does not dissolve in acetone does not for me give 100% proof of the composition of the tested substance,

if Jacco has tested and blacklighted one of my greco 1800's then he is entitled to propose it may be something other than nitro, personally I have never tested any guitar with acetone, and i do not own a blacklight.

I am sure there are many types of finish used for MIJ guitars, for me if the catalogue says lacquer, then thats enough, I appreciate there are deviations from the catalogue specs, but I have to ask why? if you have a nitro spraying line set up for a certain level of guitar, (say the 1800's) then why on earth would you spray an EGF-1800 in any other way? and i dont believe that there were times when the nitro ''ran out''

so, my conclusion is that there were different batches of nitro made up, and these have different properties, thats what my main point is, so please dont start accusing me of any hyping, misleading, lying, whatever you want to call it, in the end you are accusing me of poor business practise, which I will not tolerate, i hope i have made myself clear...

Mark, your respons and your "defence" has a clear argument, which is based on something (ex; catalogues). The people I directed my critique towards do not present any counter argue containing a trace of agenda or bottom line.

I think Jacco's contribution makes it clearer.

 

[Cali Girl]

To make a decent corpus study (quantitative) you'll need about 300 objects to study. I doubt that many on this forum has had that many Japanese guitars so who will have argues which are scientifically based to oppose?

So how many have you measured?

 

[jacco]

So you are mad

 

[JohnA]

I have owned a lot of mij guitars, and when I've sold them I often get asked if they are nitro so I test with cellulose thinners. A lot of them that I supposed were nitro DO react. I personally couldn't give a hoot, I own a lot of mig guitars, as well as USA guitars, and IMO my best guitars are mij, and to me that's all that matters.

Koub, I really don't understand all your mij bashing, you do it over and over again, on a forum dedicated to mij guitars! Why bother buying 1500 mij guitars if you think they are rubbish?

As for Villager hyping, that's rubbish, he actually plays his guitars (very well actually) and has owned more Historics than anyone I know, and chooses to play mij because he believes they are better.

 

[wulfman]

Lacquer or not, I'd rather everyone stop buying these MIJ crap guitars. That way I can dedicate myself to buying them all and getting the proper sample size for some serious scientific enquiry.
Lack of interest in these junk pieces should keep the prices low enough to complete the study after several years of serious work.