STEVE VAI.....guitarist or technician???......please read on

[Anonymous]

Mike, you seem to be obsessed with hateing Gary Moore.... :lol:

Well Ozeshin hates Frusciante, I hate Moore. You got a problem with that buddy? :evil:

Seriously though Mick, it's because he portrays himself as a blues player, which he isn't. He may be a very good rock player (or he may not....), but he sure as hell ain't a blues player. And he ruined the evenings when he supported B.B.King on his last UK tour in 2006. There are so many people who would have been perfect for that slot, and complemented the maestro. Instead we got that scabby faced, long haired heavy metal player who doesn't know what the volume control on his amp does.

Yeah, I hate him! 8)

 

[gxm]

Mike, you seem to be obsessed with hateing Gary Moore.... :lol:

Well Ozeshin hates Frusciante, I hate Moore. You got a problem with that buddy? :evil:

Seriously though Mick, it's because he portrays himself as a blues player, which he isn't. He may be a very good rock player (or he may not....), but he sure as hell ain't a blues player. And he ruined the evenings when he supported B.B.King on his last UK tour in 2006. There are so many people who would have been perfect for that slot, and complemented the maestro. Instead we got that scabby faced, long haired heavy metal player who doesn't know what the volume control on his amp does.

Yeah, I hate him! 8)

I feel we're digressing somewhat!.....wether you hate him or not, he is an example of the 'old school' I was referring to, he is an articulate player, and I think articulation has quite a bearing on my original question....I personally feel it is a very important part of a player's toolkit......wouldn't you agree?......I feel articulation suffers at the hands of the 'widdly widdlers'.

 

[JohnA]

gxm, I've tried to be clear in my previous posts that I think the flaw in your question hinges on catagorizing players in to two groups:

Widdlers & soulful players

There is plenty of crossover, there are loads of slow players with no technique, no talent, no soul no anything! Also, plenty of people that can widdle but have so much more on offer as well.

 

[gxm]

gxm, I've tried to be clear in my previous posts that I think the flaw in your question hinges on catagorizing players in to two groups:

Widdlers & soulful players

There is plenty of crossover, there are loads of slow players with no technique, no talent, no soul no anything! Also, plenty of people that can widdle but have so much more on offer as well.

hello again John...yeh, I realise, and I really appreciate your input....the thing with a research question is, you may not find an answer to it, I agree, there are zillions of guitarists who we may or may never know, playing successfully incorporating aspects from both fields, it's interesting to hear everybody's views tho'.....there's no right or wrong about it, and no man should criticise another for the way he chooses to play, there is no flaw in the question, the problem arises when you try to apply a definite answer, the conclusion I draw may be inconclusive but that won't be because of the question.....the question is a valid one......that's research......there's some good debate on the 'vai.com fan forum(all about steve)' if you're that interested, if not I'll wish you health and happiness and ta muchly.....Gary

 

[leadguitar_323]

Yeah Mike i have a problem.. :evil: i don't have enough money......
I can't stand frusciante either, but i still think Moore is a good player .....maybe not blues, but a great rock guitarist.... :wink:

Mick

 

[Ozeshin]

LALALALA..not listening..LALALAALA...John Fruciante sux..LALALALA dugs drugs..LALALALALA...junkey..LALALALA 8)
I'm in agreement over GM thinking he's an out and out blues player...blues based rocker?...that I'll concede...hell...that's how I describe my playing.
But go take a look on youtube at the Thin Lizzy tribute tour..Moore/Robo/Gorham and Bell all on the same stage....now THAT was Moore's heyday.
LALALALA...Fruciante sounds like *****..LALALALA

 

[leadguitar_323]

Mick

 

[eddie h]

Hmm this got me thinking, as a music teacher I listen and play all kinds of
styles as a fan, and musician I'm a thrasher. Don't discount the lesser known (recognised) shredders Hannerman/King from Slayer. Spill the blood has a wonderful intro section as does newer stuff 213 and Dead skin mask. Emotive yes scary of course but that is what that style demands as well as thousand mile per hour solos, scary is a good medium too remember Wagner.
Look at Judas Priest too some fantastic guitar work there too. Fast at times, technical too but the solo in before the dawn one of my all time faves. As for Vai, Satch et al I think they have inspired a new generation
across the board (soft rock to thrash) adding more technicality to playing styles but as I tell students too much knowledge (adding twiddly bits willy nilly) could spoil the enjoyment of a good old simple riff thats fun to play and listen to. Hope my ramblings make sense.

 

[japanstrat]

Technique went up for a lot of players after EVH came along with all that tapping. In the 70s most players were blues based but some players like Steve Hackett were doing Bach like tapping in the early 70s but not many guitarists noticed. Ritchie Blackmore was doing a blues/classical sort of thing. Then EVH ripped off the tapping thing from Ace Frehley and sort of dumbed it down for the masses (like a reality show) with that Roth clown. EVH grew up with Charlie Parker and Classical music and tapping makes it easier to throw in Jazz and Classical stuff into the solos. Then all the others followed like Steve Vai. Personally the tapping thing was around so much it gave me the -----, like the Vocoder crap now in dance music. So that's when the blues feel in solos started to diminish and be replaced by a tapping mixture of shock and awe classical and jazz like virtuoso stuff which is great but too many guitarists were doing it and they all sort of sounded the same after a while. If EVH hadn't have come along what would Vai have sounded like. He would have picked up tapping from Frank Zappa but he might have sounded a lot different. btw my favourite blues player is David Sanborn who is not a guitarist but a sax player and I recommend to any guitarist to listen to great players on other instruments like Charlie Parker. Charlie Parker used to practise 10-12 hours a day like Vai and Charlie Parker was the player who raised the technical bar for everyone involved in non classical music.

 

[leadguitar_323]

Hi Japanstrat, mate i wouldn't credit Van Halen for contributing to Vai's style as he was an innovator from the start, you only have to see some of the stuff he was doing with zappa to know that,and that was one of the reasons zappa hired him. And what about Alan Holdsworth, he was tapping way before Van Halen came onto the scene. Vai's tapping is a lot more complex than Van Halens and i don't think they really got anything from each other, it is just what they developed themselves. Both probably originally heard it done by Paganinni who was doing it in the late 1700's to early 1800's... :wink:

Mick

 

[Ozeshin]

Then EVH ripped off the tapping thing from Ace Frehley and sort of dumbed it down for the masses (like a reality show) with that Roth clown

WHA??...HOW????...WHEN??
Name an example of Ace Frehley's mastering of tapping?
So you're saying that Ace Frehely's tapping techniques were far more complex than EVH who,in fact,couldn't do it properly so he "dumbed it down"?
EVH was influenced by Alan Holdsworth as far as tapping and legato runs go.
Ace Frehley was my first ever guitar hero...I copped A LOT of his stuff as I was forming a style of my own....then discovered Gary Moore,Schenker etc etc.
It's hard...if not impossible for me to pinpoint one single example of Ace Frehley's "astounding" tapping technique.
I loved him to death as a teenager but he sure as hell wasn't the most complex of players....underated?...absolutely...complex and groundbreaking...NO.

 

[Ozeshin]

People also need to remember that Vai was originally a guitar student of Satriani's in SF.
And a lot of Satriani's influence is STILL evident.

 

[japanstrat]

Yes Vai would have got tapping from Zappa but I think there was still a bit of EVH influence.
Ace was doing tapping with a pick (like Zappa) back as far as 1973 and maybe he got it from Zappa who knows, tapping was just a novelty thing going around in the 60s and 70s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96W2jSwbmwU Ace is tapping on Shock Me on a live Kiss album in 1977. Ace said in a Guitar World interview that EVH was hanging around because of Gene Simmons and EVH saw Ace tapping in 1977 and the funny thing is that all EVH's bootlegs don't have any tapping until 1977. When I say dumb it down I was talking about Roth and how he dumbs Van Halen down with his over the top Las Vegas showbiz routine. Funny how no one sort of noticed Ace doing tapping before EVH.

From another forum

"Case in point,Kiss live on VHS at the Winterland Ballroom 1974,Ace Frehley clearly begins doing a descending pulloff to the open G string while tapping on Frets 5 and 7,while his left hand executes pulloffs on the 4th and 2nd fret.Basically,5-4-2-0,, 7-4-2-0,,5-4-2-0 and so on.Also in Budokon '76 VHS video,clearly Frehley demonstrates the technique is advancing,as he does pull offs on the 1st string,8-5-0,while tappng other notes corresponding to the A minor scale up the neck to the 22nd Fret.Again,in 1977 Live in Houstan VHS,Frehley taps clear up and down the high E during his "solo" piece.Need Audio proof,pop in KISS ALIVE 2,and listen to Frehlehy's unaccompanied Guitar solo following "Shock Me" .There is a score of Tapping runs he is using. "

 

[JohnA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96W2jSwbmwU "

Brilliant, I enjoyed that, sloppy as hell but a really gutsy sound!

I think there is a lot of EVH influence in Vai, simply the generation Vai grew up in. As for Eddie 'dumbing it down' by todays standards he isn't the most technical player but it's certainly a lot more technical than Ace's playing on that video at least.

 

[japanstrat]

Looking back at my post I could have phrased it a bit better. I didn't mean dumb down the playing I meant the presentation of it. Steve Hackett, Frank Zappa and all the other guys that tapped before EVH didn't seem to get noticed much but EVH got a lot of attention I think because it was more accessible and exiting to young album buyers/guitarists. Eruption is just a lot of fast rock runs and then the Bach like tapping end which had already been done by Steve Hackett but I think Steve isn't as exciting as EVH so EVH gets the tapping credits a lot. Eruption with no tapping from 1976 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EiKtb0oYmY Genesis were singing about Pixies in the early 70s and were an Art Rock band and Steve would do a Bach like tapping bit but it isn't as exciting as seeing Roth do his Las Vegas stuff and EVH doing his tapping combined with whammy bar stuff so Steve didn't get a lot of attention for his tapping.

Let's face it Ace is all over the place in that clip and EVH is spot on in the above clip with no tapping. Back in the 70s EVH had a great technique wether he was tapping or not.

 

[japanstrat]

If this no tapping version of Eruption was on the first album how many people would have paid attention to it?

 

[JohnA]

If this no tapping version of Eruption was on the first album how many people would have paid attention to it?

I think a lot of people would have still take notice, but I agree the tapping was new to a lot of people (me included) and I'm sure it helped.

 

[gxm]

If this no tapping version of Eruption was on the first album how many people would have paid attention to it?

I think a lot of people would have still take notice, but I agree the tapping was new to a lot of people (me included) and I'm sure it helped.

So...reverting back to the original question....would it be fair to say that a guitarist can be as technical as he likes, but what stops him(or her) being purely a technician, is having somewhere in their playing, a recognisable element of the blues??

 

[Anonymous]

some players like Steve Hackett were doing Bach like tapping

So Bach invented tapping? I'm not sure he'd want to be blamed for that! :lol:

With regard to listening to sax players, my vote is for Lester Young. Listen to some of the stuff he recorded with Billie Holliday - gorgeous.

 

[Anonymous]

would it be fair to say that a guitarist can be as technical as he likes, but what stops him(or her) being purely a technician, is having somewhere in their playing, a recognisable element of the blues??

Interesting summary. 8) I would agree with that - even if you don't listen to or play blues, it is the root of pretty much all modern music, particularly guitar based music, and undoubtedly it's the main root of rock.

I'm sure others will disagree, but if that's your summary, I think you have a reasonable case, and it should be fun to illustrate it with examples. Start with Hendrix, then work forward..... 8)