Neck Tenons

[gundjo]

Hi All,

this is almost certainly and old question but I am curious as to what kind of neck tenons early Love Rock/Reborns/Reborn Old models have. I've seen contrasting claims both that all vintage Tokai's have so called "medium tenons" and that the LS 150 and above have long tenons. A current auction on ebay shows the pick up cavity of a 1980 LS 120 that, to my admittedly simple mind, looks like a long tenon (I see a strip running under the neck pick up cavity). Don't want to revisit old news or set off a fire storm but any help would be appreciated (even if its just a nudge to an older thread). While were at it any views on the various materials used in the early crown inlays?

 

[bobwise]

The early Tokai neck tenons are visually deceiving. That '80 LS120 does indeed have a medium tenon (just like my '80 LS120). The tenon runs all the way back to the pickup cavity, but it stops right there and the end of the tenon forms part of the wall of the cavity. The thing that runs back farther into the pickup cavity is a continuation of the mortise that the tenon fits into -- it's just a depression in the floor of the cavity.

Here's a cross-section pic of a Gibson long tenon:

You can see that there are often gaps between the bottom of the tenon and the floor of the mortise in Gibson's long tenon. That's because the tenons are hand trimmed with chisels to accommodate the slight variations in neck angle caused by the slight variations in the top carve. The sides of the tenon fit very tightly against the walls of the mortise so longer tenons have larger contact areas, but the contact area isn't 100%.

Tokai was one of the earliest adopters of CNC routing/carving machines. There's a little variation in the top shape because of final hand sanding, but the area where the neck joins is very precise. The CNC mortise & tenon has 100% contact on the bottom as well as the sides. So the early medium tenons have about as much wood-to-wood glue area as most Gibson long tenons, sometimes even more, despite being about 3/4" shorter.

The Tokai medium tenon is also asymmetrical -- offset towards the bass side a bit. There's more body wood in the cutaway side of the mortise, stiffening that area. That makes the joint even stronger and stiffer. Along with the 100% contact area, the medium tenon is fully the equal of a Gibson long tenon. (Later high-end Tokai's long tenons are also asymmetrical, so they're stronger and stiffer than any Gibson long tenon, even though they're a tiny bit shorter than Gibson's long tenon.)

Here's a pic of all three of Gibson's LP tenons:

As a practical matter, even the ugly sloppy short tenon is hugely strong. From the '70s until a few years ago, all Gibson non-Historic models had the short tenon and lots of them sound great. (The current non-Historics have the "transitional" medium tenon pictured -- a bit longer than Tokai's medium tenon, but again notice the gaps between the bottom of the tenon and the floor of the mortise.)

So don't worry about the Tokai medium tenon. The individual variations in neck & body wood have a far greater affect on tone than the differences between medium and long tenons. The '80s Tokai's had spectacular wood and they compete very well with the long tenon Historics. The difference between Tokai's medium and long tenons is more psychological than tonal.

 

[bobwise]

Here's a pic of a Tokai medium tenon:

You can see from the shadows that what looks like a tongue on the end of the tenon is actually a depression in the floor of the pickup cavity. If you look carefully in the shadows you can see the end of the bottom of the tenon -- a line between it and the floor of the cavity. And you can see what I meant about it being asymmetrical -- offset to the left with more body wood on the right side (cutaway side).

 

[bobwise]

In the interest of full disclosure, I just noticed something about that pic I lifted off Google of the 3 types of Gibson neck joints: the pic of the transitional tenon is actually a Photoshop edit of the long tenon pic (the wood grain is identical and wood grain is like fingerprints).

So I can't guarantee that the transitional tenon is exactly like that, just that it's similar to what's shown.

(When they first introduced the transitional tenon and PCB mounted pots, my initial thought was that they had once again copied Tokai -- just as they copied the whole reissue idea from the Japanese makers who were making '50s reissues back when Gibson thought people wanted bowl-top LP's with pancake bodies and 3-piece maple necks with volutes and 14 degree headstock angles.)

 

[JVsearch]

(When they first introduced the transitional tenon and PCB mounted pots, my initial thought was that they had once again copied Tokai -- just as they copied the whole reissue idea from the Japanese makers who were making '50s reissues back when Gibson thought people wanted bowl-top LP's with pancake bodies and 3-piece maple necks with volutes and 14 degree headstock angles.)

Good discussion about the quality of the tenon joint as opposed to an argument about which one is longer!

Doesn't the Gibson transitional tenon date from 69-70 sort of period?

 

[gundjo]

tremendously informative and clear, Bobwise, I appreciate the reply. I feel greedy asking but all that learning has apparently just wet my appetite--any thoughts on the materials used in the early 80's Love Rock fretboard crown inlays? I've read somewhere (quite a source, no?) that they are mop but they sure look like the original celluloid acetate (aka "Pearloid") on the old Lesters. Whatever they are they look terrific.

 

[bobwise]

"Doesn't the Gibson transitional tenon date from 69-70 sort of period?"

Oops, I always forget about those. They didn't make a lot and the specs changed every few months. The very earliest '68s had long tenons (NOS leftovers from when they stopped LP archtop production in '60/'61), then some sort of medium, then the short tenon.

A couple of years ago they switched the Standards and Studios to a medium tenon (probably because lots of people saw those cross-section pics on Gibson's website and suddenly realized what was under the fretboard on short tenon Gibsons). I referred to it as "transitional" because that's how the pic was labeled. It's entirely possible that the Les Paul Forum member who mocked up that pic of the transitional tenon was trying to illustrate one of the '69/'70 tenons.

The '69~70 Gibson Goldtops weren't really reissues since they had the wide "Deluxe" style binding in the cutaway. The '68 Goldtops weren't really reissues either -- they were '50s LPs that weren't assembled/finished until '68. But to be fair to Gibson, they did do the very first LP reissue sometime around then -- they made a small run of Black Beauty LP Customs with P90 bridge pickup and "staple" neck pickup (and "fretless wonder" short frets). But they just made a few and then abandoned the reissue concept for over a decade. (AFAIK, the staple neck pickup LP Customs are the only '50s LP's never cloned by the Japanese builders.)

Guitar Trader, Leo's Guitars, and Jimmy Wallace commissioned small runs of reissues from Gibson starting around '78. But Gibson dragged their feet and the retailers had huge struggles trying to get them to build anything remotely accurate. Guitar Trader stripped the Gibson hardware off of theirs and replaced it with Gotoh stuff (the only way to get aluminum tailpieces and wireless ABR's). And they weren't production models available at any Gibson dealer -- strictly limited, available only through those three dealers. And then Gibson once again abandoned the concept of making accurate reissues until they introduced the Historic line.

I saw a bunch of Jimmy Wallace's at the Dallas Guitar Show a couple of years ago. They're pretty laughable compared to Tokai's.

 

[bobwise]

"... that they are mop but they sure look like the original celluloid acetat (aka "Peraloid") on the old Lesters."

Yes indeed, they're plastic just like the '50s LPs. The swirl/figure is a little different -- that exact pattern of pearloid hasn't been made since the '50s. Some hardcore Historic owners buy replacement inlays made from '50s pearloid stripped off of old accordians.

The current highest-end Tokai LS370/470's have natural Mother of Pearl inlays.

My perception is that Tokai has a strict code of ethics -- they don't compete directly with Gibson, they offer things Gibson doesn't build. When Gibson wasn't making reissues, Tokai made almost-exact '50s clones. But now that Gibson makes almost-exact clones, Tokai doesn't. The 150s have poly base coats with nitro on top -- the specs slot in between Gibson's regular LPs and their Historics, a niche that Gibson doesn't fill. Gibson leaves a huge gap in their model range -- buy a modern spec LP or pay about twice as much for a '50s spec LP. (The LS90s also fit into that gap between regulars and Historics -- the 90s a bit closer to the regular range, the 150s closer to the Historic range.)

The 370/470's are super-deluxe upgraded '50s models -- as good (or better) than the Historics, but not "accurate" reissues because they have more expensive inlays made of natural materials.

Same with their Fender clones. There was a time that they offered '50s clones that were way more accurate than any Fender model. Now that Fender has the Custom Shop Time Machine series, the American Vintage Reissues, and the Mexican Classics, Tokai fills niches in between those ranges. Either better than the Mexicans but but quite as good as the AVRI's, or better than the AVRI's but not quite as good as the Time Machines.

By "better", "not quite as good", "in between regulars and Historics", I'm talking about accuracy of specs and price range, not build quality, material quality, tone, or playability. The quality, tone, playability of the 150s are right up there with the Historics -- they just aren't quite as historically accurate.

(I'm being a little sloppy with the model numbers. By LS90 I mean the lower-range Japanese models, by LS150 I mean the higher-range regular production Japanese models.)

 

[gundjo]

"Some hardcore Historic owners buy replacement inlays made from '50s pearloid stripped off of old accordians."

I take a perverse comfort in knowing that there are people out there even more agitated than myself. Thanks again for all the helpful info. Now if I could just learn how to play the guitar...

 

[marcusnieman]

bobwise..... do I know you? You play with anyone around town or hit the jams?

Garland is a hop / skip away from me in Richardson. Garland is also home to my pal Hash Brown ... along with Jim Suhler, Mike Morgan and Pat Boyack.

 

[bobwise]

"bobwise..... do I know you?"

Last year at the Arlington Guitar Show (or maybe it was the year before) I spoke to someone at your booth about the Goldtop Tokai you had there and asked him if he was marcusnieman from the Tokai Registry. He said no, that he was just filling in and running the booth for you.

But I sort of had the feeling that it might have been you and you try to avoid internet stalkers. :wink: I was just tire-kicking and wanted to see how Tokai poly Goldtops look in real life (very nice -- I could be totally satisfied with one).

I'm a pretty shy and withdrawn guy -- that really got in the way of my dreams of being a guitar god rock star. I mostly play alone in my apartment (my turtle digs my playing, my dog tolerates it, the neighbors don't pound on my walls and tell me to shut up). Most years I play a bit at the Fender Discussion Page jams that are scheduled around either the Dallas or Arlington shows (upstairs at the Main Street Liquid Co in Richardson) -- I've been hanging out on the FDP for a decade and I know the guys there won't laugh at my playing (to my face anyway). Most of the FDP guys dig my LS120 (except for the resident Gibson snob who picked on the knob placement and the top carve in the cutaway -- although I've noticed that some '50s LPs do indeed have a similar "bulge" there). I first "met" Diamond on the FDP -- he goes by a different handle there, as do I (my goofy name there is strayedstrater), but I'm pretty sure there's only one very enthusiastic South African Tokai distributor.

When I crawl out of my hole and jam with people I love it, but for some reason I always go back to my hole and withdraw again.

Back in the '90s, my (now ex) wife and I were looking at houses in Garland. One of them belonged to Bugs Henderson. I lobbied hard for it but my wife didn't like it too much (I guess she saw the detached garage converted into a studio/practice place as a negative).

I've been a fan of Jim Suhler ever since he was "just" a DJ on KNON playing blues records in the wee hours of the morning. But I'm such a stick-in-the-mud that I never dragged my butt down to his short-lived club in Deep Ellum. I kept saying "someday I'll go", now I kick myself for missing the opportunity (the story of my life).

 

[JVsearch]

Great info in this thread!

And a good read, cheers.

 

[marcusnieman]

Yeah, great info on the always interesting tenon discussion. I always learn something....

bobwise... yeah, that was my goldie in Hash's booth at the guitar show. I decided not to sell it but I bought another.... custom order 54 goldie with a wrap tailpiece.... love it. Still have the 56 you saw if you're interested.

 

[bobwise]

That was a sweet guitar, but:

A) Right now I'm so broke I can barely pay attention

B) I go for "breadth" in my collection rather than "depth". One Strat, one Love Rock, one electric archtop hollowbody, one double-cut Junior, one OM-style cheap acoustic. I have 5 Explorers but they're all very different -- 1 Gibson Xplorer Studio w/LP Deluxe pickups, a headless Arbor, a "Dean Baby"style Arbor, a star body Arbor, and a funky amateur-built Explorer with a Gibson LS-6 neck. A few other oddities and a couple of basses.

If I can afford more guitars someday, I'll be needing a Tele, a 335, a "normal" Explorer, and a 4001 bass (preferably all Japanese). A Kramer aluminum neck bass. Hondo made a "Formula 1" Explorer with sculptured/angled top & back surfaces and I'd love to grab one of those. A Tokai Random Star (or Five Star; I've seen them called different names). Maybe an SG, but I had one once and didn't really like the balance and proportions -- same for Firebirds (odd that I love Explorers but don't feel comfortable with 'birds).

If I ever get to that point, then I'll start doubling up on things.

Or maybe I'll just stop now. I used to dream about having enough guitars to stock a store -- Strats in every color of the rainbow, dozens of LPs, everything imaginable, even a Hide Mockingbird. But I'm already starting to feel that having as many as I've got is a bit of a PITA. Guitars sit for weeks, some even months without being touched. So many strings to change. I could get by with the LS120, Strat, a couple of Explorers and a bass.

Yeh, I know -- we should all have such troubles. Sheesh I'm a spoiled rotten whiner. I know I'm blessed and give thanks every day for what I've got. (OTOH, I don't have a woman so a lot of guys who just have 1 Squier Strat have more than I do.)

 

[marcusnieman]

LOL.... I think we all started out that way. Is there a 12 step program for GAS?

 

[CliffsGuitarWorld]

Wow....... Guys .... Thanks for this thread and all the personal stuff that makes life interesting..... Thanks again....

 

[mattim]

LOL.... I think we all started out that way. Is there a 12 step program for GAS?

I have followed a simple, tad expensive, but definitely efficient program called GAGEMAHIFYCW. (Get a guitar every month and hide it from your current wife). Usually works in less than 12 months.

Matti

 

[CliffsGuitarWorld]

My wife said something to me when I had accumuilated 37 guitars. I hope for all of the rest of the forum members this works for you... BUY ... BUY... BUY... !!

 

[Mick51]

My wife said something to me when I had accumuilated 37 guitars. I hope for all of the rest of the forum members this works for you... BUY ... BUY... BUY... !!

Was it by any chance, "Let's move to Maui?" :lol:

 

[CliffsGuitarWorld]

Why.... Bingo...... So I only shipped 9 to Maui sold the rest..... been secretly buying again.... shushhhh.. 8)

BTW... Good memory its almost been 2 years now... :lol:

So if any forum members are visiting Maui let me Know....Its guitars, beer and da beach. 8)