Les Paul Reborn

[chrisheyes]

This guitar definitely has the moustache shape on the Headstock Ochay !!

 

[Paladin2019]

Paladin

I think it's earlier than 2003 as there is a posting dated 29th Jan 2002 which mentions the Retrspec truss rod cover.

Using the search facility on the forum on RETROSPEC and you will see posting by "Stokeboy" and "James" for them.

See below :

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 5:56 am Post subject:

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Just tried out an old Les Paul Reborn at Andy's in Denmark Street, London UK. Flame top, zebra pickups, Les Paul Reborn logo on the headstock, "RETROSPEC" (?) written on the truss-rod cover. Played and sounded fantastic, despite being quite beaten up and even when compared to a 5K Gibson reissue (honestly actually prefered it). So why didn't I buy it? An asking price of 1800 GBP (2500 USD) is why. I know they're rare but one went recently on ebay for about a third of that price. Still, if there are any rich Tokai-heads out there, go get it.....

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The recent relics are "LOVE ROCK models", this one says "LES PAUL reborn" .

Hence the confusion :-?

How old is old, when age is a state of mind ;-)

The asking price, date, appearance of the guitar and lack of serial # all support my theory. I reckon they were a prototype run of the relics and the company eventually lost their nerve when it came to putting les paul on them.

Note the high asking price and the fact that the poster was fooled into thinking it wasn't a relic.

 

[chrisheyes]

Paladin

You may be correct with that theory, hence why I'm trying to ascertain
more details from Andy's guitar shop where it was potentially originally sold.

Tokai could have used old parts from stock in the factory to build the guitar as a prototype, just for market research. Would people pay big money for these definite "Lawsuit" guitars.

The plot thickens when you see a posting like this:-

When I was looking at it in Andy's they said it was brought in by the guy they were dealing with to get the new Tokais.

And then there is this posting :-

i will get pix once i can borrow my mate's camera! i don't even know the exact spec's but when i took the pup covers off earlier (a real pain it was too) it was 95% a solid flame top on top of what could also be a 1pc back. i bought it for ?760 after hagglin from ?800. the previous owner only had it for a month so i think ive got myself a great deal considerin they were goin for ?1200 new... however i have a feelin my new guitar will go up in value because there arent too many of these. i never even knew of a les paul reborn relic model. the guy at the store told me the story behind gibson letting tokai use the les paul name one more time. apparently they cud only do a certain number of these reborn models with les paul on the head or none at all an now i have one. if any of you guys saw it, youd think it was an original from the 80s. the craftsmanship is of of very high quality, the tuners, binding, pup covers (which are now off btw) were nicely aged aswell. everythin has been done great realism.. unlike some of fender custom shop's relics which ive seen in the past. the neck felt slighty slimmer to the 2002 gibson std i compared it to in the store. and did i say, this thing sounds amazing? i had only played this thought a peavy bandit and my blues jr in my uni room but i use a couple of half jcm stacks at home where my band is. i also forgot to mention, the trust rod are the gibson shaped with "RETROSPEC". i think i'll enjoy this one.

I bought my guitar 10 miles away from Stoke. I could very well have the very same guitar now !

So, if this is a relic model built in 2002, how many were made with Les Paul Reborn on the headstock ?

hmmmmmm

 

[chrisheyes]

At last I worked out how to get photo's on here. Thanks for all your help Ian

Tell me what you think guys ?

The guitar now hangs out with "Breezy" and "Goldie" my other Tokai's

 

[hoss]

Hm, I guess the PTP wiring was done when the H?ussels were installed.

What's strange: I think they didn't use veneer tops in the '70s when the real Reborns were made...?!

Neck cavity and control cavity look like on my 78, but I have shielding paint in the control cavity. My switch is different too, but maybe your's was changed with the wiring.

On my neck tenon you can see the cover on the truss rod route.

 

[chrisheyes]

Update Folks

Just had an email reply from Tokai's ditributor in the UK

From: [email protected] Add to Address Book
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 02:47:17 EST
Subject: Re: Tokai Les Paul Reborn Retrospec


Hi It looks like one of the first relics we did in 2001

Regards Bob

Looks like we are nearly there to date the LES PAUL REBORN RETROSPC's

 

[ian]

Hi Chris ? thanks for the photos, though as you say you?ve now found how to post them here (well done) :-? .

Well, it?s an interesting reply from ?Bob4Tokai?. But is he saying the Retrospec was made in Japan by Tokai themselves? Or is it from the Korean division? Or did he make these himself? Or did he get Harry Hausell or someone to make them? Are they original 78-79 Reborns, or are they recent Love Rocks with Reborn decal? :roll:

Paladin ? I?m completely unaware of the relic Tokais that you mentioned (c.2003, or whatever date), ? are they documented somewhere in the registry? Any more info about them? I have a vague recollection that Loverocker had some sort of reliced Tokai, a high-end model I think, is that what we're talking about? :-?

Hoss ? ha ?yuck? is in the eye of the beholder, or since the pcb isn?t even on view I should say in the mind of the believer :wink: .

Ian.

 

[chrisheyes]

Ian

There are photo's of the Relics on the tokai registry website as below :

http://www.tokairegistry.com/tokai-info/tokai-models.html

The photo's show a Love Rock rather than a Les Paul Reborn

I will email Bob @ Tokai again to see if we can get an answer to your questions

I bet you are into conspiracy theory's Ian :wink:

Chris

 

[chrisheyes]

Ian

There are photo's of the Relics on the tokai registry website as below :

http://www.tokairegistry.com/tokai-info/tokai-models.html

The photo's show a Love Rock rather than a Les Paul Reborn

I will email Bob @ Tokai again to see if we can get an answer to your questions

I bet you are into conspiracy theory's Ian :wink:

Chris

 

[Paladin2019]

The relics were LS70F's that were sent to the UK, refinished in nitro and given new hardware/electronics by an independant relic'ing agent.

There were 12 made in 2002 and another 12 in 2003 - apparently there were 'retrospecs' before that and there may have been some made in 2004.

 

[ian]

Ha,?no, emphatically NOT into conspiracy theories LoL ,?though long experience has taught me never to take things at face value :-? .

Thanks for the link ? don?t know why I never noticed that stuff before. I guess that explains it. But one aspect still puzzles me ... it's one thing to take a current Love Rock & mess it up a bit, but I'm a bit uneasy about taking the same messed-up Love Rock & changing headstock decal to make it look like a guitar discontinued in 1979 ? maybe that's OK if it's well publicised & buyers know all about it ... but here it seems buyers had no idea what was being done (or maybe most of us missed the advertising) .

Ian.

 

[Paladin2019]

But one aspect still puzzles me ... it's one thing to take a current Love Rock & mess it up a bit, but I'm a bit uneasy about taking the same messed-up Love Rock & changing headstock decal to make it look like a guitar discontinued in 1979 ? maybe that's OK if it's well publicised & buyers know all about it ... but here it seems buyers had no idea what was being done (or maybe most of us missed the advertising) .

Ian.

Maybe that's why they changed it in 2002.

 

[ian]

Chris ... in case it seemed like I was disrespecting your guitar ? no way! On the contrary ? very cool looking guitar 8) .

Paladin -- Yes! (seems a bit dodgy though).

Ian.

 

[chrisheyes]

No offence taken Ian ;-)

I've still not had any replies to the additional questions I sent to Tokai's UK distributor.

It would be nice to finally establish the facts

Paladin

Where did you get your information about the relic's ?
Do you know where the guitars were made into Relic's, and by whom ?

 

[Paladin2019]

Paladin

Where did you get your information about the relic's ?
Do you know where the guitars were made into Relic's, and by whom ?

Most of the info came from here, though I have played a couple myself. Unfortunately we learned a lot from a forum member named LondonBarry who left the board under mysterious circumstances some time ago and deleted all his posts when he did so.

I do recall that the relic'ing was a UK-only thing, done by a UK company (I think they were based in Surrey?) and that they used nitro lacquer and Wilkinson hardware/pickups on their later versions. The distributor would know the people who did the work - they may be worth a phone call.

 

[chrisheyes]

Paladin

Thanks for that update, pity LondonBarry left the forum !!

I have emailed the distributor and received one reply, but alas he hasn't responded to my following email

What I don't know is was mine an original Les Paul Reborn that has been relic'd to look like a '59 Unburst Les Paul.

The build quality rules out the possibility of this guitar being a Korean model.

 

[Paladin2019]

Paladin
What I don't know is was mine an original Les Paul Reborn that has been relic'd to look like a '59 Unburst Les Paul.

Almost definately not. The script logo would have been replaced during the refinish. Some of the later relics didn't even have a script logo. They wouldn't have butchered a batch of secondhand reborns given their rarity and interest in the 'lawsuit' guitars at the time and they definately wouldn't have sold them on as new.

No, I reckon they made a prototype run of reborns then lost their nerve and went back to love rock.

 

[ian]

Chris ? you said earlier that top is veneer, and your photos show frets without bound ?nibs? (ie ends). But if frets are original then I think it must mean guitar is ?new?, ie not an original Reborn. Why? Well, Reborn LS80 & higher had bound frets ?and all lower models had solid plain tops (not flame veneer).

Clearly you were unaware of exactly what you?d been sold ? Andy?s Guitars clearly didn?t know either, nor did any of us (inc. me), although Paladin had a pretty good idea.

But apart from the fact you may have been mislead, it also runs a clear risk of faking, which is what led to me to ask those ?conspiracy? type questions. Eg takes 5min. to swap pups & TRC, & guitar then looks just like 1978 LP Reborn (apart from lack of Sn)? but any half-decent repair guy could add an Sn ? & probably stamp model-number into Fretboard too, eg ?LS150? ? hey presto looks like very rare & valuable vintage guitar :roll: .

Ian.

 

[martin_uk]

Hey chrisheyes, I'm stokeboy, the guy you were refering to. I'm 99% sure that I use to own your guitar. I saw that auction o ebay last week, emailed the seller and asked if he got that guitar from Stoke and his reply was yes. I bought it from the ryhthm house guitar shop in hanley. I was the one who pulled those pickup covers off . I was told they were made by a german company. Never heard of them but they sounded great. Enjoy it!

Paladin

You may be correct with that theory, hence why I'm trying to ascertain
more details from Andy's guitar shop where it was potentially originally sold.

Tokai could have used old parts from stock in the factory to build the guitar as a prototype, just for market research. Would people pay big money for these definite "Lawsuit" guitars.

The plot thickens when you see a posting like this:-

When I was looking at it in Andy's they said it was brought in by the guy they were dealing with to get the new Tokais.

And then there is this posting :-

i will get pix once i can borrow my mate's camera! i don't even know the exact spec's but when i took the pup covers off earlier (a real pain it was too) it was 95% a solid flame top on top of what could also be a 1pc back. i bought it for ?760 after hagglin from ?800. the previous owner only had it for a month so i think ive got myself a great deal considerin they were goin for ?1200 new... however i have a feelin my new guitar will go up in value because there arent too many of these. i never even knew of a les paul reborn relic model. the guy at the store told me the story behind gibson letting tokai use the les paul name one more time. apparently they cud only do a certain number of these reborn models with les paul on the head or none at all an now i have one. if any of you guys saw it, youd think it was an original from the 80s. the craftsmanship is of of very high quality, the tuners, binding, pup covers (which are now off btw) were nicely aged aswell. everythin has been done great realism.. unlike some of fender custom shop's relics which ive seen in the past. the neck felt slighty slimmer to the 2002 gibson std i compared it to in the store. and did i say, this thing sounds amazing? i had only played this thought a peavy bandit and my blues jr in my uni room but i use a couple of half jcm stacks at home where my band is. i also forgot to mention, the trust rod are the gibson shaped with "RETROSPEC". i think i'll enjoy this one.

I bought my guitar 10 miles away from Stoke. I could very well have the very same guitar now !

So, if this is a relic model built in 2002, how many were made with Les Paul Reborn on the headstock ?

hmmmmmm

 

[chrisheyes]

Cheers Martin_uk, you've confirmed my suspicion about the guitar.

The Les Paul Reborn Retrospec's were made in 2001 using, as Paladin suspected LS75F's.

They were a prototype for the Love Rock relic's made in 2002 and 2003, to see if there was a market for retro'd guitar's. They were made by tokai in Japan and Retro'd in the UK. The re-use of the Les Paul Reborn logo was done just for the prototypes as they weren't made for general sale.

Do we all agree on this ? Ian ? Paladin ?

It would be nice if we found out where the guitar that was in Andy's guitar shop in Denmark Street in feb 2002 is now.

We know that that there were at least 24 Love Rock Retro's made and sold for ?1200.

How many Retrospec's were made ? ? ?