Ishibashi EG1000C in White

[MIJvintage]

Nicely stated Mark

In regard to the 'rocker tenon':
The rocker type tenon is less effecient in the transfer of vibration aka sound than a regular/non long tenon.
With a rocker style tenon there is a very negligible percentage of surface area contact between the bottom of the tenon, and the top surface of the body joint.
The only areas to realize real & meaningful contact in this type of joint would be the two sides.
IMO, with the rocker style tenon the transfer of vibration aka sound looses out to the concept of ease of manufacture.
That is a terrible trade of, and IMO just goes to demonstrate that a company that uses this technique is much more interested in getting numbers out the door, than they are of making a quality guitar.
What a shame ................


In regard to the regular/non long tenon:
I have played & owned many LP style guitars without the long tenon, and tonally the regular tenon/non long tenon guitars stand up just fine to the long tenon examples.

I prefer a long neck tenon in a LP style guitar but it is obviously not required to have a good, or even great guitar.

 

[JohnA]

Just to chip in, I used to own a 1981 Gibson, that I presume had a rocker tenon, sounded **** fine

As for long Vs Short, who cares as long a the guitar sounds great! i usually leave the neck pickup in when playing :wink:

 

[Koubayashi]

What's with the no long neck tenon?

or am I missing it in the photo?

This is a Super Real...... Right?

Which is sad.
Cause long-tenon makes the neck more stable and the contact area between neck and body larger, which is better for the sustain and tone.

the whole long neck tenon thing started because Gibson were using a rocker joint on the LP standards, this was to make setting the neck angle easier, this is obviously less favourable than the long tenon, non rocker joint used in the historics and the originals, as with a rocker the wood to wood contact is minimal... so for gibsons, long tennon = good contact, rocker joint (with a normal tenon length) = poor contact.

this comparison is now being mistakenly made with ALL normal tenon guitars, without rocker joints, the original arguement has some substance as the difference in contact is large, however it doesn't really apply to the Japanese guitars with normal tenons, as none of these are rocker joints.. the wood to wood contact in a non-rocker, normal tenon guitar is very solid and only marginally less in surface area than a long tenon, but in my view that really makes no difference tonally..

this is a typical example of an original valid point being widely repeated and incorrectly applied outside the original comparison, which has led to the general belief that any long tenon is tonally ''better'' than all normal tenons.. which is absurd.

It can be that Lesters made with long tenon in general are made better.
For example Gibson Std vd Customshop.
Obviously other details have to be better on the CS.
All the small things make the entity.

This is yet another way to hype Super Real


For players who really rock when they a long tenon is a must though.
Short tenon is really unstable and not favourable for those of us who use the guitar as a physical active tool.

 

[Koubayashi]

Just to chip in, I used to own a 1981 Gibson, that I presume had a rocker tenon, sounded **** fine

As for long Vs Short, who cares as long a the guitar sounds great! i usually leave the neck pickup in when playing :wink:

Of course the overall quality (both craftmanship and materials) are very important.
But I can't help to feel that I need long-tenon when I play.
I prefer MC over SR for two reasons, the tenon and the body shape (SR are uuuuugly). But still I keep a bunch of SR and in the future someone might pay good money for them

 

[Freebird]

I'm guessing most of you already know this, but for those who don't:

http://forum.japanaxe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1070

Scroll down to get to the tenon-specific discussion.

 

[villager]

It can be that Lesters made with long tenon in general are made better.
For example Gibson Std vd Customshop.
Obviously other details have to be better on the CS.
All the small things make the entity.

This is yet another way to hype Super Real


For players who really rock when they a long tenon is a must though.
Short tenon is really unstable and not favourable for those of us who use the guitar as a physical active tool.

absolute rubbish :roll: :roll:

 

[MIJvintage]

This is yet another way to hype Super Real

how can that be?

I don't follow you on this so, I must be missing something.

 

[Koubayashi]

This is yet another way to hype Super Real

how can that be?

I don't follow you on this so, I must be missing something.

SR is "below" both the real 50s and Gibson CS when it comes to building quality. Yet, there is a lot of hyping going on.
Dead honest, I yet have to find a SR that is half as good as the real deal (though, it might be that the mind hypes the 100k-500k LP just cause of the price)....

Obviously a good guitar is a good guitar but if the mother of Lesters is a 59 LP then SR has a million zillion miles to go.
DryZ are not near the real PAFs.

 

[Koubayashi]

It can be that Lesters made with long tenon in general are made better.
For example Gibson Std vd Customshop.
Obviously other details have to be better on the CS.
All the small things make the entity.

This is yet another way to hype Super Real


For players who really rock when they a long tenon is a must though.
Short tenon is really unstable and not favourable for those of us who use the guitar as a physical active tool.

absolute rubbish :roll: :roll:

I break necks when I play :wink:
If the neck sways when I pull, throw hit etc its not a plyer in my world.
But of course, old ladies play guitar too so short tenon is O.K

 

[Mick51]

But of course, old ladies play guitar too so short tenon is O.K

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/vintage-les-pauls/73215-artists-used-les-pauls-50s.html

Scroll down to the video of Sister Rosetta Tharpe. That "old lady" taught Pete Townshend to windmill.

 

[MIJvintage]

OK, I did, "miss something" .........

since the Super Real guitars do not have a long tenon then I don't see how much of anything discussed in this thread could be directed in a positive light so as to, "to hype Super Real" .............

call me dumb :lol: ..................

 

[villager]

kyubashi,

you are making silly claims for the superiority of a long tenon joint, to suggest one is somehow necessary for a ''real'' guitarist, who uses a guitar as an ''active tool'' to ''really rock'' HA HA HA. This is uninformed subjective drivel, and trolling of the worst kind, it contributes nothing objective or knowledgable whatsoever...

as MIJ said above, super reals are usually not long tenon. there are some which are but most are not..


Billy Gibbons plays a vintage tokai, so do many of the members here on the tokai forum.....

short tenon, nuff said..

 

[JohnA]

As a 'real guitarist' who 'really rocks' i have no trouble with my Tokai short tenons, maybe if my guitars were actively played by a tool there would be some problems :wink:

 

[Juni41]

I'm guessing most of you already know this, but for those who don't:

http://forum.japanaxe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1070

Scroll down to get to the tenon-specific discussion.

Yes I remind me this topic too.
I think Super Real have long tenon too but it's not visible.

 

[MIJvintage]

I'm guessing most of you already know this, but for those who don't:

http://forum.japanaxe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1070

Scroll down to get to the tenon-specific discussion.

Yes I remind me this topic too.
I think Super Real have long tenon too but it's not visible.

I previously have read thru' that article, and then again today.

I considered a couple of things:
(1) the type of tenon in the above graphic would likely only have been replicated with extremely accurate CNC equipment.
(2) I was under the impression that FugiGen Gakki started using CNC milling techniques in 1982, and if that were the case then, how could such a join be replicated on some Super Real LP types pre 1982?

I'm not saying that type of tenon wasn't used by FugiGen but the odds of that type of tenon construction being consistantly replicated/made by hand, and/or by non CNC techniques just doesn't really seem to hold water.
I just don't see the docuementation, or logic to support it ................

 

[Udonitron]

Oh boy...the whole tenon thing again? As long as nobody claims that long tenons create more sustain! That is the biggest BS of all. All the various tenons are just different forms of neck pocket construction and strength factors. The only way any of us will truly know what is the strongest would be to run a strength test on the various types to see which hold the most strain or weight before snapping and where the snapping would occur. Perhaps we should email Myth Busters with a claim and have them run a few tests!?

Oh yeah, nice score on that Greco SG there Villager I noticed you hit the BIN on it. That was a sweet axe!

 

[Koubayashi]

Oh boy...the whole tenon thing again? As long as nobody claims that long tenons create more sustain! That is the biggest BS of all. All the various tenons are just different forms of neck pocket construction and strength factors. The only way any of us will truly know what is the strongest would be to run a strength test on the various types to see which hold the most strain or weight before snapping and where the snapping would occur. Perhaps we should email Myth Busters with a claim and have them run a few tests!?

Oh yeah, nice score on that Greco SG there Villager I noticed you hit the BIN on it. That was a sweet axe!

Excellent idea.
but I wonder what they would think???
Personally I think short tenon necks aren't as stable.
And I don't like the surf tremolo effekt that occurs on unstable necks (especially SG).
In my experience long tenon doesn't "Surf" as much as short.

And the 50s Gibson had long tenon, why I think a good replica or clone should have it as well (just for the detail).

Tonal differences are mainly from wood quality.
Of course, it can become better with deeper anchors for the stringholder and the bridge. Just as well as an aluminum string holder will "sing" better.
One remarkable thing is that the anchors on at least Greco (never checked any other) doesnt really go deep in the body.
My friend got deeper anchors for his LP and the sustain increased quite a lot.

 

[Freebird]

Geeeeeez...... Anyway, I guess that whole tenon thing hasn't completely snuffed people's interest in the guitar in the subject heading that started this whole thing.

I think the Myth Busters idea is actually very good. They've been on the tube for a while. I bet they're starting to get short on original ideas.

 

[RyanC]

short tenon, nuff said..

+1

 

[RyanC]

Oh yeah, nice score on that Greco SG there Villager I noticed you hit the BIN on it. That was a sweet axe!

Did I miss a link somewhere? I want to see this thing...