Flamed sycamore - what's the story?

My LS125 SEB is specced as having a "flamed sycamore on two piece maple top".

What's the story with the sycamore element? I've never heard of it being used in this way. It seems to give a convincing flamed maple effect on my guitar as pictured below, but why not just use a maple veneer (I assume it is a veneer and not some kind of photo flame). So why sycamore - is it simply cheaper, is that it?

Here's an example - Coco in all her clownish glory (pickguard en route)

If the Sycamore is 'Acer pseudoplatanus', it is in fact, Maple, and is more properly known as Sycamore maple.

As the tops are sycamore on the cheaper guitars and maple on the rest, I always assumed it was purely down to cost.

Mike

Thanks

Hi! I do not agree that this is only for cost. The "story" is much bigger.

The SEB (Sound Effect Body) was the first patent Tokai got approved in the US. Of course it still did not allow them to sell F/G copies.

The sycamore-top comes as a necessity to keep the body resonating IMHO. If you slice mahogany you need it to work most of the way.

I guess (I do not know) that Tokai discovered at some point that this way of building guitars is actually much more expensive.

Rup

Hi rgrafend - that's pretty interesting. I find the SEB body construction to be pretty resonant, at least as good as the solid mahogany Gibson and Epi Les Pauls I've owned or played. The SEB body feels quite alive. It's hard to make viable comparisons however, as I assume my '04 Gibby LP had the modern weight relief holes which may have acted as sound chambers, thus having an effect on resonance.

I'd be interested to hear from other SEB owners on this subject. This SEB thing intrigues me.

jawilluk said:

If the Sycamore is 'Acer pseudoplatanus', it is in fact, Maple, and is more properly known as Sycamore maple.

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Yep

Sycamore is part of the Acer family and therefore Maple. But it is what we term Industrial ( or commercial grade ) Maple. It is not a tone wood , but used for visual impact.

Sycamore has no tonal abilitys, hence why it is used as a Veneer.


Just like Agathis is known as commercial grade mahogany.

Sycamore is in abudance in the UK, so is Alder. But Alder in the UK is not tonewood, it just keeps the Squirrels in homes and was a major part of Gunpowder manufacturing.

Interesting (as usual) Billy. When you say that something is "not tonewood", what do you mean exactly? Is it generally accepted to be the case, or is that a personal opinion? I think I recall you saying the same thing about basswood in the past?

stratman323 said:

Interesting (as usual) Billy. When you say that something is "not tonewood", what do you mean exactly? Is it generally accepted to be the case, or is that a personal opinion? I think I recall you saying the same thing about basswood in the past?

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You can get several variations of wood within the same family. In the Acer family for example, You get the standard North American Maple used for Fender necks alongside Sycamore.

Although they are both from the same species, the only thing they share is the flame. ( Hence why Sycamore is used a lot for furniture ). But it's density is different. Therefore it does not resonant the same.

Basswood is a good example, because there are so many grades and types of Basswood. The Basswood Ibanez and Jackson use is far superior to the Basswood you will find on Budget guitars. Good grade Basswood has virtually no grain and a greenish hue.

I have seen some Basswood guitars that have grain like Ash ( usually on ?20 specials )

There is some science in what a tonewood is, but generally there are accepted woods that can be used for musical instruments. Although it is nice to buck the trend sometimes .

A freind of mine built a batch of guitars from Pear Wood, they looked fantastic, but sounded dead. Although if you're a shredder and play through a processor then you can use plastic.


I personally, like a mix of Elm , Maple and Walnut . A lot of the great Bass models have been built from these materials over the years.

Additionally to Billy's remarks ...

That's what Warmoth says about woods and options for guitar use ...

http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/options/options_bodywoods.cfm

Roger

Interesting article from Warmoth. They say that you can't use flame maple for necks or fingerboards, but Fender do on their top models. And it's very nice too

stratman323 said:

Interesting article from Warmoth. They say that you can't use flame maple for necks or fingerboards, but Fender do on their top models. And it's very nice too

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I think they mean the degree of flame. I quite often have used flame maple for necks, but it would be graded as - ( minus )A.

Something like AAAA maple for necks would be week and muffle the tone. Dont forget , flame is a diseased tree, it is weak along the grain.

Flat plain simple Maple is far superior in tone then AAAA Maple.

Which is why Sycamore is such a cost effective alternative. I have seen some stuning flame on sycamore at at place in Cornwall called " The Lost Gardens of Heligan " They have a craftsman on site who makes furniture from the Sycamore tree's they had to fell when the gardens were being renovated.

BillyWizz said:

A freind of mine built a batch of guitars from Pear Wood, they looked fantastic, but sounded dead. Although if you're a shredder and play through a processor then you can use plastic.


I personally, like a mix of Elm , Maple and Walnut . A lot of the great Bass models have been built from these materials over the years.

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Gibson once made the Sonex, which was basically a plastic bodied Les Paul. I briefly owned one years ago, but I didn't keep it long. :-?

Elm as a tonewood? That's a new one on me

stratman323 said:

Elm as a tonewood? That's a new one on me

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It gets used as a laminate on a 7 part neck. It acts as a sound buffer and has similar properties to mahogany and walnut.

Trouble is the cost is very high for very little gain, so it dont get used much except in thru neck designs for Bass's.

BillyWizz said:

I think they mean the degree of flame. I quite often have used flame maple for necks, but it would be graded as - ( minus )A.

Something like AAAA maple for necks would be week and muffle the tone. Dont forget , flame is a diseased tree, it is weak along the grain.

Flat plain simple Maple is far superior in tone then AAAA Maple.

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OK, how would you describe this maple?





I would have called it flame, or is this wrong?

stratman323 said:

BillyWizz said:

I think they mean the degree of flame. I quite often have used flame maple for necks, but it would be graded as - ( minus )A.

Something like AAAA maple for necks would be week and muffle the tone. Dont forget , flame is a diseased tree, it is weak along the grain.

Flat plain simple Maple is far superior in tone then AAAA Maple.

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OK, how would you describe this maple?



I would have called it flame, or is this wrong?

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Its flame but also Birdseye Maple.

Fantastic for necks, Top Quality !

It's flame and birdseye? Oh, I thought it had to be one or the other. :-?

It's one of the best sounding Strats I've ever played, so there's clearly no weakness there.

stratman323 said:

It's flame and birdseye? Oh, I thought it had to be one or the other. :-?

It's one of the best sounding Strats I've ever played, so there's clearly no weakness there.

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When you have a Birdseye figure on Maple, there is always flame with it as well.

I have a couple of Birdseye necks on my Strats and they look and sound amazing. That is a fine example of wood on that Shoreline.

Ah, but is it Shoreline Gold? Fender don't seem sure, & Shoreline isn't usually as yellow. I've come to the conclusion that it's Aztec Gold, but I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who knows.

stratman323 said:

Ah, but is it Shoreline Gold? Fender don't seem sure, & Shoreline isn't usually as yellow. I've come to the conclusion that it's Aztec Gold, but I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who knows.

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Ah! an Oddball one !

I have a USA Standard series Strat with a Custom shop one piece Ash body.

When I stripped it down and checked all the bar code stickers, someone has fitted the wrong body to the neck and it has got mixed up in production.

Yet the Corona plant and Custom shop are miles apart


I aint moaning !. For ?550 in Sound Control I got a FrankenStrat worth 6 times the value I paid.


I read on a forum about a guy who ordered a Mexican Strat from Thomanns and he took delivery of a 1960 re-issue Custom Shop worth ?3k instead . Talk about luck