Honduras mahogany, and african mahogany on tokais...

I know this as been discussed here already, but I didn't really get to an objective conclusion in the end... how much better than the african mahogany used in tokai love rock models such as ls70, 80, 125, 135, 145s, 230, etc.. is the honduras mahogany used on higher end models (ls-380), I'm talking tone wise, resonance wise, looks, weight, anything you can think of.

I ask this because the ls-145s I recently purchased with a one piece back and neck, of african mahogany, is the most resonant instrument I've ever played, the most amazing tone... even unpluged the guitar almost echoes seriously, I found myself thinking "this thing sounds like it as a reverb on" I was playing it unplugged, so how much better can honduras mahogany really be?

After buying the 145s I'm thinging about getting an humbuckered one, because I don't own any humbucker guitars, I was thinking either ls-135 or ls-380, I like plaintops better, but they don't have higher end plain tops besides the 135, and the 380 has the well know honduras mahogany, but my 145s just feels so good, that it leaves me to think the 135 will more than satisfy my needs...


so any opinions on this matter of woods, would be great

thanks

Buy both models and judge by yourself :wink: .When you did that then you'll realized the difference...Honduras mahogany Tokai uses is more responsive and with more sustain,it's overall a bvetter wood to me.

I promise I'll let you know Bruno. It's hard to believe that it gets much better the our LS145s. Will just have to wait. I have never played a guitar that sounds as good as my LS 145s. My luthier was stuned when he did my set up. He loved the perfect detail down to the quarter sawn neck. He said it was the best reproduction he has ever played! Wait till he sets up my LS 380!

bruno said:

even unpluged the guitar almost echoes seriously, I found myself thinking "this thing sounds like it as a reverb on" I was playing it unplugged, so how much better can honduras mahogany really be?

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I think you answered your own question... Tunafreak reported the same for his LS145S, so it seems that African mahogany isn't necessarily worse than Honduras mahogany. How much does your LS145S weigh? There could be a difference with Honduras mahogany which might be lighter. In the end it's probably more important if you want to be historically correct, because the originals were made from that wood. Same is true for the Jacaranda fingerboard.

I like plaintops better, but they don't have higher end plain tops besides the 135

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There was that special order Pacifix Exclusiv Series (PES) for a Japanese shop with several plain top LS290 models with Honduras mahogany and J.M. Rolph PAFs, but they are sold out now:

http://www.musicland.co.jp/shibuya/tokai-pes/

yeah I heard about the pacifix models at the time, but I really wanted the p90's, no regrets... my 145s weights roughly 3 kgs ~= 6.6pounds I guess, unplugged the guitar holds a note for days, and it has an amazing kind of reverberation to it, almost as if the notes increase in volume after being played, hard to explain...

well I'll be loocking forward to hear from tunafreak, a very nice guy here in portugal whom I by stuff from, says I'll be trying to get a couple of 380's at a more reasonable price, so who knows maybe I'll luck out, otherwise ls-135 is the rout for me...

I forgot to say I tried some gibson historics (models which suposedly have honduras mahogany, they were used guitars, a 56 and a 54), none of them sounded better or more resonant than the 145s...

that's why I'm left to wonder wether there is such a big difference?
By the way hans is my guitar light or heavy at 3kgs? (I have no clue about that, I've told you I'm relatively inexperienced with les pauls)

bruno said:

I forgot to say I tried some gibson historics (models which suposedly have honduras mahogany, they were used guitars, a 56 and a 54), none of them sounded better or more resonant than the 145s... that's why I'm left to wonder wether there is such a big difference?

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As far as I know the newer Historics don't use Honduras mahogany (don't know since when) or Brazilian rosewood (after 2003) anymore. The important thing is that your guitar is "alive", i.e. has an own voice with long sustain and dynamics, the sort of wood is secondary then.

By the way hans is my guitar light or heavy at 3kgs? (I have no clue about that, I've told you I'm relatively inexperienced with les pauls)

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How did you weigh it? 3kg is much too light, and you should start looking for hidden chambers inside that guitar... I also thought my 1984 LS60 would be around 3.5kg until I got better kitchen scales from my grandma. Now I know that it weighs 4.1kg, and the 1981 LS120 is 4.2kg, but still has the heavy Schaller tuners which might contribute about 100g plus to its overall weight.

I used an analog scale, saw my own weight, than the weight of the guitar and my own, than I subtracted both... not very precise, but I'll get my hands on a digital precision one soon...

you're absolutly right, I'll have to give a serious thought as to wether I can suport the costs of a 380, right now... if the ls-135 feels as alive as the 145s, which theoretically it should, than there's no point, in spending big bucks for now...

My LS145S is about 8 pounds, wich is on the light side. It is a very resonate guitar and has complex tones the likes of wich I have never seen or heard in another guitar. I realize this is all very subjective, but I would put this guitar very high on my list of guitars that I have played. It also has that elusive played for ten years feel that is very rare these days. My only gripe is this: Tokai has a habit of shipping thier guitars to soon after production, and this creates some finish issues for the nitro laquer. I wait a month or so and then hand buff the small areas to a smooth finish. When I last emailed Hiroaki I made note of this problem that has been a factor on all of my Tokais. I'm still waiting for her reply as to my request for a non stained back like the ones on thier LS145S. I don't think it would be an issue because it should be even less work than thier stained back ones. These LS380 guitars are made order so it should be no problem. I would love to change tuners but they really stick it to you for that.

Mark

I don't think you can make blind comparisons, each piece of wood is different, including wood from the same species. Sometimes you get winners, sometimes nothing to write home about!

"As far as I know the newer Historics don't use Honduras mahogany (don't know since when) or Brazilian rosewood (after 2003) anymore". ON top of that Hans, The custom shop 1956 gold top that I saw had a 3 piece back!
My luthier loves old gibsons and has The most exspensive collection I have ever seen. He laughs at the "historics" and the price that they comand.
His opinion of Tokais is this: They make Gibsons like Gibson used to do.

Mark

TUNAFREAK said:

ON top of that Hans, The custom shop 1956 gold top that I saw had a 3 piece back!

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Interesting, I haven't heard that yet, do you know from which year it was?

Anyhow, here's another fine example of a brand new LS145S from a Japanese shop that is known to sell at least to Ireland if the deal is done with a Japanese speaking person...

http://www.j-guitar.com/sp/sea/view_detail.cgi?pid=13440204





Export price seems to be 116,000 Yen without shipping.

And the LS135 with plain maple top and humbuckers is also available as a goldtop, by the way. Probably its back will also be finished in light brown.

hans, now that I have the ls-145s, the next guitar I'm saving for is a Ls-135 I have no doubts about that, I really like plain tops like I stated before, besides I can't afford the more expensive 380...

the godltop would be great, because the back would be unstained, but since the ls-145s is a goldtop already I might go for a brown sunburst...

hans-j?rgen said:

There was that special order Pacifix Exclusiv Series (PES) for a Japanese shop with several plain top LS290 models with Honduras mahogany and J.M. Rolph PAFs, but they are sold out now:

http://www.musicland.co.jp/shibuya/tokai-pes/

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Hmm, seems they just got a brand new one:

http://www.digimart.net/gk_detail.do?instrument_id=DS00148573



And a brand new LS230, too (from March 8, 2006):

http://www.digimart.net/gk_detail.do?instrument_id=DS00145091



8)

By the way, here's the explanation for English speaking users of Digimart.net, a similar overview site like J-Guitar.com:

http://www.digimart.net/service/info/english.html

So it's not sure if the shop Musicland Key will answer to your email, but you're encouraged to do so. Here's the shop profile with their contact email address on Digimart.net:

http://www.digimart.net/shop_detail.do?shop_no=1121


OK, I can't help it... Here are two more pages from Musicland Key with Tokai gems... 8)

A summary on both the LS290 and the LS230:

http://www.musicland.co.jp/shinjuku/tokai/index.html

In this picture you can see that the back of the Lemon Drop model is in light brown, too, so maybe all LD finished models are like that, not only the goldtops. The LS290 has fret edge binding, too, by the way:



And some very nice new ES copies:

http://www.musicland.co.jp/shibuya/tokai_selection/index.html

On the bottom of that page there's a 2005 LS320 "cheapo" for 248,000 Yen:

hans you're killing me... I can't afford them right now... I just passed on mercman 150... because I have to gather more money. By the summer I'll have enough funds for a new tokai though, so watch out 8)

Well, I didn't post these new pictures exclusively for you... I can't afford any of these either, if that helps.

yeah I know those weren't exclusivly for me, but... you're still killing me though LOL

I'm goi to start very slowly gathering money, so by summertime, I'll be able to afford another tokai, maybe a higher end one... if not an ls135 will more than suffice...

thanks for your post though hans it's always a pleasure to see those beauties