The Relaltionship of Tokai and Fujigen?

Sigmania · Dec 9, 2022

It is seeming more and more likely that there may have been times over the years where Tokai had a business relationship with Fujigen and had them make guitars that were branded "Tokai"?

They were of course competitors at times like for the contract with Fender in 1981/82.

But it is probably misleading to look at the relationship in Western terms where competitors are bitter rivals and do not cooperate at times.

Heck, Tokai even ended up making guitars for Fender years after their negotiations broke down and the relationship soured in late 1981/82.

From the Talk Bass forum:

"...I think that the N series with the cursive MIJ decal are Tokai builds made under sub-contract direct from Fujigen - not Fender Japan - at that time when they were retooling.

I straight up put this in an email to Tokai Gakki recently and their response was simply that they are contractually bound not to talk about OEM contracts. Fair enough - but why not just say 'we didn't build it'?"

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/help-i ... 068/page-2

Just going to document cases where it seems that they could potentially have had a relationship.

Sigmania · Dec 9, 2022

The first instance was in 1980/81/82 where it seems that Tokai had some lower spec guitars made in Nagano.

More and more it seems that Fujigen may have built those guitars for Tokai.

Voidoid56 said:
Hm. Well, if so, they certainly built them exactly like Fujigen, detail by detail.

The Tokai SS:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Ht2rRGh.jpg[/img]

August '81 Greco SE450:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/FDnNouP.jpg[/img]

The Tokai SS:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/sdbN8Dw.jpg[/img]

August '81 Greco SE450:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/tBiNAy5.jpg[/img]

The Tokai SS:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/R7DwWV2.jpg[/img]

August '81 Greco SE450 (obviosuly a different stamp):

[img]https://i.imgur.com/BMha4Bs.jpg[/img]

The origin of the the SE450 is not in question, since the 1980-82 SE450 and 700 were (afaik) the only Greco models Fujigen actually "signed".

[img]https://i.imgur.com/A8yEZuX.jpg[/img]

I honestly can't see how these two guitars could have anything but a common origin.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26103&p=198196#p198196

Sigmania · Dec 9, 2022

And these curious Tokai Goldstars from 2009 with no serial numbers.

Date stamped.

'09 9.17 (Sept 17, 2009)
'09 9.24 (Sept 24, 2009)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3743215458...0rhz/o1zvfaJsK7D64bufHKnY=|tkp:Bk9SR_KvpvSeYQ

Sigmania · Dec 9, 2022

And into 2010 after inked serial numbers began.

Date stamped

" '10.2.28" (Feb 28, 2010)
" '10.3.4" (March 15, 2010)
" '10.3.15" (March 15, 2010)

SN 100170

https://reverb.com/item/32106689-tokai-ast-65-goldstar-sound-2010-japan-black

Sigmania · Dec 10, 2022

SN 096057

2014 conversation on Strat - 7alk web site:

willowgardenuk:

"Hi All,

I bought last week new from a music shop a Tokai Goldstar Sound (presumably TST50) strat copy. They had it in the shop for years and I finally decided if noone else was having it then I would.

The strange thing is, I thought Tokai were not making these fender copies in 2009, and that they were still manufacturing for fender japan at the time?

There are a few other features of the guitar that make it stand out from my other two TST50s (a 2011 sunburst and a 2013 mary kaye), namely:

-Very bright 'amber' sunburst
-One piece swamp ash body
-Parchment pickup covers/knobs
-Deeply tinted maple neck
-Plain unstamped (gotoh presumably) saddles
-09 serial number

Is it possible with the above features this was part of a limited run? The (apparently) one piece body in particular is very unusual."

https://www.strat-talk.com/threads/2009-tokai-goldstar-sound-strat-is-this-one-a-rarity.267937/

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21521

Sigmania · Dec 11, 2022

N serial numbers supposedly date to 1993-1994.... Hmmmm

https://www.seattleguitarstore.com/...l-number-guide-what-year-is-my-fender-guitar/

"For comparison

These are from a N series MIJ Jazz.

The 33 on my pick up cavity stamp seems to argue against being date stamps, but the 5 on both of them corresponds with the Heisei Calender year 5 being 1993 when N series were in production."

"What got me confused however is that on my N series MIJ, the 'Made in Japan' decal is in cursive - unlike all the other MIJ basses I own which are in a sans serif typeface. Add to that the completely different stamping and I feared I bought a copy, albeit a very good quality one.

So, I did some nosing around and there seems to be a few cursive MIJ decal N series, with serial numbers from N086**** onward. They also had the same style of neck and PU cavity stamping.

On further investigation the only other producer I could find who used this style of stamping is Tokai. However, nowhere does it say that Tokai were making MIJ Fenders (as opposed to CIJ) and certainly not in 1993 when mine was made."

What is curious is that in 1993 Fujigen were apparently retooling and so some Fender Japan work got sent to Dyna Gaki and labelled as the first Crated in Japan.

Now this is where my theory comes in - I think that the N series with the cursive MIJ decal are Tokai builds made under sub-contract direct from Fujigen - not Fender Japan - at that time when they were retooling.

I straight up put this in an email to Tokai Gakki recently and their response was simply that they are contractually bound not to talk about OEM contracts. Fair enough - but why not just say 'we didn't build it'?

Let me stress, this is just a theory. I have no proof of this and it goes somewhat against the grain of the 'accepted wisdom' of MIJ v CIJ, but I think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support it.

Now, your bass has the advantage of must having been made by either Tokai or Dyna as it is CIJ.

If I am right about the neck stamps, I think you have a Tokai build. From what I have read elsewhere the Tokai's are better regarded builds than the Dyna Gakki builds and, moreover, the Tokai built Fenders seem to be Japanese Domestic Market (JDM) only. Again this would suggest higher quality.

I would add that Tokai were the initial front runners ahead of Fujigen back in the day to take on the initial Fender Japan work, so it makes some sense that if the work was to be split between themselves and Dyna, they would receive the higher end work.

As everyone else on TB will say though - if it sounds good and you like it that is all that counts.

This is true enough, but personally I am a fan of Japanese craftsmanship in many things (don't get me started on JDM Seiko's!) and I'd like to make a correct attribution if I could.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/he...nside-genuine-fake-or-modified.1241068/page-2

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26824&p=201751#p201751

Sigmania · Dec 11, 2022

It is looking like this was a longer relationship than most people beleive....

SN N066433

1993-1994 production date...

https://www.seattleguitarstore.com/...l-number-guide-what-year-is-my-fender-guitar/

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fake-mij-fender.1364645/#post-21830904

Sigmania · Dec 11, 2022

Not sure how this fits. Note the "3TS"

Fender "Crafted In Japan" bass

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/he...pics-inside-genuine-fake-or-modified.1241068/

Sigmania · Jan 6, 2023

Tokai built Greco.

Tokai & Greco

The Relaltionship of Tokai and Fujigen?

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