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Sigmania

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I live in the US and have always always assumed that all mahogany was from the tropics of the Americas. Wrong! :-?

Obviously that is not true because more and more I am hearing about African mahogany.

I would love to hear what people think about the different kinds of mahogany.

Also, which Tokais have which and starting when?
 
And how can you tell what this is?

yCIesiG.jpg
 
And of course grain patterns can vary.

Honduran ("Genuine" of the genus Swietenia) can look more plain or highly figured. Early American furniture often used figured "crotch" mahogany.

q8ZIRis.jpg


African mahogany (of the genus Khaya) can come in a variety of similar grain patterns as well.

VV5e4Oj.jpg
 
So my main question is, when did Tokai begin using wood African Mahogany, and on which models is it used?
 
for the 1978 to 1982 LS models everything is listed as Mahogany, except for the body for the LS-200, which is listed as H-Mahogany.

my 2000 LS-320 is supposed to have Honduran, as is my early Momose MLS-STD/J but my ears don't know the difference between Honduran hog & African hog aka Khaya.
 
guitar hiro said:
for the 1978 to 1982 LS models everything is listed as Mahogany, except for the body for the LS-200, which is listed as H-Mahogany.

my 2000 LS-320 is supposed to have Honduran, as is my early Momose MLS-STD/J but my ears don't know the difference between Honduran hog & African hog aka Khaya.


Interesting. So does Tokai now say the wood is “Honduran mahogany” or “African mahogany”, or just “mahogany”?

I ask because African mahogany is not actually mahogany. It’s a different genus. So if it’s stated as mahogany it should say “African mahogany” in quotes as it’s a special use of the word.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaya

In other words, if a catalog says simply “mahogany” then it better be actual mahogany and not “African mahogany” or khaya as it’s also called.
 
guitar hiro said:
for the 1978 to 1982 LS models everything is listed as Mahogany, except for the body for the LS-200, which is listed as H-Mahogany.

That sort of implies that if it is not stated then it is not Honduran Mahogany....

There are mahogany trees in other parts of Central America and Cuba. Even Florida. Wondering what the distinction actually means?
 
My bias has been that African mahogany is not as dense, or as good a tone wood. That it is lighter colored and more open grain. I may be wrong....

I have a bias based on a 1990s LS55 Gold Top Love Rock that I got 8 years ago and did not like and sold (on the right below).

bcUm6yt.jpg


http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20970

I got it because I have a 1979 Gold Top LS80 (on the left) that I loved.

When the newer one came along I decided to grab it since it was cheap (under $600) in case it sounded as good. It did not.

It had lighter colored mahogany than the 1979 LS80 which is VERY dark stained. I figured it was new growth mahogany and had not heard of African mahogany at the time.

Here is the only pic I still have of the back showing the lighter & red color of the wood.

pUHQbsm.png


So I have a bias, but it may be all wrong.... In looking back I am seeing that it had funky pickups, also multi piece body, and lower model generally than my LS80, AND..... no serial number so this guitar was a mystery all the way around.

I see now that I may have been unfair in attributing the lack of mojo to the wood....
 
I am also now wondering what my all mahogany 1981 LS100S is made of??

It's a monster guitar with incredible sustain.

And it's dense... 9 lbs 10 oz.

2GvkuHZ.jpg


yCIesiG.jpg


Xz3EYMR.jpg


Owu3xYx.jpg


sNCvZHb.jpg
 
Direction of cut and where it's from in the trunk make huge differences in the surface figuring that you see.
 
mdvineng said:
Direction of cut and where it's from in the trunk make huge differences in the surface figuring that you see.

And age, and growth rate, etc. I'm pretty familiar with woods, and yet am realizing I had a blind spot to this wood coming from Africa.

I live in the states, so I see mahogany from Central America every day. My dresser that my clothes are in is mahogany.

Just trying to sort out what I thought was one thing may actually be another.

I have been in old growth forests in Costa Rica and stood beside mammoth old mahogany trees. I kind of know the growing conditions. Now I am curious about the African mahogany. Is it wild grown? Is it old growth? Are its supplies dwindling as well?

Interesting stuff.

Also being in North America I realize now how far the Americas are from Hamamatsu, Japan, and how Africa is closer geographically. Also how India is closer than Brasil re: rosewood. These woods possibly have been used at Tokai for longer than I assumed.

Assumptions... dangerous things. 8)
 
I think the majority of M used over this side of the pond since Victorian days is African and now leaning to Indian but both dwindling fast/rapidly.
 
Sigmania said:
guitar hiro said:
for the 1978 to 1982 LS models everything is listed as Mahogany, except for the body for the LS-200, which is listed as H-Mahogany.

That sort of implies that if it is not stated then it is not Honduran Mahogany....

There are mahogany trees in other parts of Central America and Cuba. Even Florida. Wondering what the distinction actually means?


It does not sort of imply, not IMO.

As far as the "distinction" comment, you should have quoted my full post.

"for the 1978 to 1982 LS models everything is listed as Mahogany, except for the body for the LS-200, which is listed as H-Mahogany.

my 2000 LS-320 is supposed to have Honduran, as is my early Momose MLS-STD/J but my ears don't know the difference between Honduran hog & African hog aka Khaya."

You see that last sentence? My ears don't discern any distinction. :lol:

And on another note: The entire concept of 'mahogany' has been known for some time (decades) to have been that those that typically claim something is made with mahogany, it's typically been African (Khaya) hog.

Nothing new here.
 
I quoted that part because all of my Tokais are pre 1985.

I have been trying to figure out if there was a switch in the sourcing relative to dwindling supplies of mahogany from Central America in the 1980s and on.

Sounds like you are both saying that Tokai always used African mahogany (unless specifically otherwise stated).

I’m sure Gibson used mahogany from Central America in the 50s for a similar reason. It was close and available.

Interesting stuff.
 
back in the day I doubt makers such as Gibson were utilizing fancy words such as Swietenia macrophylla to denote 'mahogany' but then who knows; maybe they were? I don't believe for a minute the average person interested in purchasing a Gibson guitar back in the day was even aware of any 'scientific' name for lumbers utilized in a Gibson guitar. I can imagine Gibson likely used a generic term like Mahogany.
Same goes for any other lumber Gibson used back in the day; maple, rosewood, ebony, etc.

from a bit of reading it seems that Khaya is similar, in that it seems to be a generic term for several species.
"There are several species of Khaya. The most acceptable as a substitute is K. invorensis. This species makes up most of the African mahogany on the international market. While this is the most desirable species it maybe sold in a mixture with other Khaya species including K. anthotheca , K. grandifoliola , and K. senegalensis. Origin of lumber can sometimes help identify specific Khaya species. This may be valuable information since differences in some properties can be significant. Supplies of African Mahogany lumber are abundant, and it can be found in a wide range of sizes at moderate prices. It is also available in veneer and plywood from many lumber suppliers. African mahogany is frequently used to replace South American mahogany because it is cheaper, easier to obtain, more abundant and can be used for the same applications."

At the end of the day I don't even have much 'faith' that my 2000 Tokai LS-320 & my Momose MLS-STD/J are made with Swietenia macrophylla aka Honduran mahogany but they were marketed as such within the respective company literature, at the time they were sold.
Is it true? Beats the Hell outta me bro.

Wood is wood. :lol:
 
"I remember Tokai made some Special Orders around 2.002 in a 100.000-180.000 yen range price with some parts with Honduras Mahogany.I remember reading this on Guitar Universe website and seeing some for sale(in Japan only).So this ones could have been the pre-LS150 we're talking about....."

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4330&hilit=mahogany
 

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