CNC At Tokai?

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The ridiculous thing to me is those Ibanez LPs from 1977 are crap. They are pancake construction and weigh as much as a tank. Super70s pickups are nice though. Maxxon.

The unfaithful construction of their copy models is one thing that led me to Tokais a little over 10 years ago.

As for Gibson, I don't know who the biggest threat was in Japan. Not as familiar. Tokai was making amazing LP copies in 1978. Seems like the Greco Super Real got their attention by 1980 as well?

As far as CNC goes, I am wondering if Tokai wasn't using it from the beginning of their launch of their Springys and then LP Reborns in late 1977/78?

I don't have evidence of that, but I do have it going back to 1980 I believe? It is mentioned in the 1981 catalogs and those would have been printed in late 1980.
 
The ridiculous thing to me is those Ibanez LPs from 1977 are crap.
I dare you to post this on the Ibanezcollectors forum! :D No seriously, there's a few things people tend to forget:

1. Compared to some domestic entry-level guitars for that money they were probably gold.
2. Things always become bigger, better and greener in fond memories of the past.
3. We were flipping guitars like crazy and many of these 2nd hand guitars had seen a luthier/tech at some point, turning them into something playable, not to forget that owners upgraded stuff like crazy.

I (and probably anyone knowing a bit about guitars) fully agree with you, more or less all these coarse, bolt-neck*** lookalikes had little to do with their role models (except for F-style planks maybe) and OOTB they were usually in sore need of some TLC. I had one of those too (some unlabeled** Fujigen-thing, not sure), I loved the heck out of it and I spent tons of money to upgrade it with everything that was available. It was a decent guitar, but the shop where I bought it gave it a full fret dressing and turned it into a player* before I picked it up. Very different from most lower-grade export guitars my friends had. But not all of them:

The unfaithful construction of their copy models is one thing that led me to Tokais a little over 10 years ago.

Luckily I had the opportunity to play and disassemble a lot of different guitars in the 80s, including some examples that eradicated the "japsh..." slur from my vocabulary forever. None of them were Tokais tho (they were known but almost nobody had one of those here back then :)) One of those that blew me away was that "El Maya Artist Series" Strat I mentioned earlier somewhere - it had everything, full 50s Fender specs, V-neck, small headstock, aluminum pickguard and some pretty darn decent pickups giving it a big, throaty SRV vibe and it was made much after the Tokai (and by that also vintage Fender) playbook if you will. My band mate had constantly inferiority complexes about it for absolutely no reason while it made me sell my 1980 "Strat" for something with a less crappy physique. :) Another eye-opener was an Artist 2630 (AS200-predecessor) I had as a loaner for a while - what a massive hunk of quality!

At the same time I had plenty of Fenders in need of a neck alignment due to super-crappy neck pockets on the workbench, one where the low-tack tape tore off half of the finish off the maple neck after a fret job, Norlin-Gibbys that only impressed with their extraordinary weight.. and JV Squiers brought in for "upgrades" that were completely unnecessary. That all thoroughly diverted my guitar focus to Japan.

[tl;dr biography]

As for Gibson, I don't know who the biggest threat was in Japan. Not as familiar. Tokai was making amazing LP copies in 1978. Seems like the Greco Super Real got their attention by 1980 as well?

They did? I always thought Greco as a JDM-only brand was never a tangible target for Gibson's lawyers?

As far as CNC goes, I am wondering if Tokai wasn't using it from the beginning of their launch of their Springys and then LP Reborns in late 1977/78?

Hard to tell, and that's already the whole point: Ideally a well-trained CNC machine delivers the same result as a well-trained, diligent guy using jigs on a manual milling machine etc. and vice versa. What counts is the result - is the neck joint tight, is the bridge aligning well, did they work cleanly or was there a mess passed on to finishing? It's the mindset that counts and if you compare the cavities of Tokais with the messy cavities of other, even Japanese factories of that time... they are as "Japanese" as it gets, tidy everywhere, even under the hood. :)

*I found that so impressive that I ended up working in that shop and learning the trade a few years later. :)

** After a few years the finish on the headstock had sunk into the wood a bit and gave the outlines of the oversprayed inlay away: It was initially meant to be a "Washburn". AFAIK copies with that label never happened, so that may have been canceled in the aftermath of the "lawsuit" or for some other reason.

*** Don't get me wrong, this is not about the neck joint - it's fake humbuckers, hollow plywood tops out of the steam press and very little attention to detail that came with the bolt-on neck, usually guitars made for very skimpy importers in need of beginner guitars with a maximum profit margin. They have their own charme when someone gave them the finishing touches they lack but they are not the "Gibson-killers" they are sometimes sold for.
 
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Sounds like you are on it.

I still have a 1979 AR500BK all black with the flying fingers pickups and smaller body style. Only one I’ve ever seen. Another is a 1981 MC550WN with the most flame I’ve ever seen. I’ve owned 3 of these koa models.

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Ah! Looking good! I think this is the first time I see an MC with flames!

I had a few Ibbys too but Musicians and Artists were not much in my scope back then because I got the Strat fever after intensively trying to avoid them (because everyone else had one - I was young and stupid).

Edit: Just checked the prices for a regular MC550...😮
 
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1979 Vol. 2 catalog....

"The Tokai SS series has excellent cost performance and has attracted a great deal of attention as soon as it was announced. NOW Black Mask Bigga Dopanel Peace Maple Neck (There is also a double fingerboard.) Body machined by NC router, high quality paint, SS-B type pickup mount, etc. Comparable. The inspection standards are very strict and the finishing details are perfect. Boasting a tone and playability that cannot be obtained from models in the same class, it will surely express the sensibility of the player."
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Tokai 1979 Catalogue Vol.2 - Vintage Japan Guitars
 
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I believe this pushes the timeline for CNC at Tokai all the way upp to the begining of mfr of Springys, etc. in 1977/78....

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Found this in translating the 1981 flat top catalog.

This and the other idocumentation in this thread destroys the myth that FujiGen pioneered CNC on guitars in 1983 or whenever. Tokai may have been doing it as far back as 1977.

1981 flat top catalog section on the JB:

Body: All types of bodies are made from a single ply of alder. (However, the JB120 also has a Senpei veneer veneer body.) I've said this before, but the genius of the NC router is demonstrated here as well, creating a completely fringe body. It is a perfect replica of the original JB body, with an offset shaped waist cut body, pickup hole processing, etc., without even a 1mm deviation. The neck joint has a splendid finish that rivals the already well-established set neck, and the use of the same alder material as the 64B produced the perfect old JB sound for the first time in Japan. The shocking original feeling that penetrates your heart as soon as you cut the guitar in half is a characteristic of Tokai's E guitars and basses, which have achieved perfect replicas in all series that make them the king of old models. Why not make these hot models that are about to surpass the originals with your own hands?
 

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1979 catalog

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Just ran across this interesting sentence in the 1982 catalog...

"By the way. Of course, Tokai was the first company in the world to manufacture a guitar using this NC router."
 

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That's a cool picture. Where did you get it? Age?

Also, where did you find the pic of the guys sitting outside the Dorm factory?
 
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This is interesting. I shared another post by him (MODA) a while back re: a factory visit and ordering an ST.

Saving pics from the site.

Note that he said:

"There are many exciting machine tools. Japan's first NC router, which supported TOKAI in its early days . This amazing machine, which has been in use since its introduction in the 1970s, is already poised like an animal with a will of its own. Tokai's stickers from back in the day take me on a journey through time as I become an old man."
 

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Here is the other post of his that I shared which has some factory pics as well.

宮地楽器 神田店

Lightweight!

TOKAI SUPER SHOP MODEL

Miyaji musical instrument order completed.

This article was written on Friday, February 01, 2013.

Hello everyone. It's been another month in 2013, and there are only 11 months left, but how are you all doing? As we have already announced to those who have read this blog, I am producing a guitar that is particular about materials as TOKAI SUPER SHOP, but I will inform you this time. Masu is a FENDER system. It's a challenge to a custom shop, not the Gibson style such as the 335 style and Les Paul so far.

The material was actually selected in Hamamatsu in late September 2012, when the heat still remains. It is a problem to always ask the staff of Tokai Musical Instruments who inevitably work in a factory where the heat is harsh. On that summer day, I heard that there was a lightweight one-piece ash and a straight-grained neck, and vowed to produce a guitar that made full use of the goodness of the material. When I recall, it actually took 4 months to complete. With the finished product in front of you, I am impressed.

When making this kind of guitar, the weight could be assumed as a numerical value at the stage of conception, but no matter how much experience it has gained. However, I don't understand anything about the performance feeling until I get the actual instrument. This is a difficult place to order a shop. Create a prototype and repeat trial and error Unlike ready-made products that are commercialized, it is a real game.

By the way, the feeling of crossing expectations and anxieties when unpacking the guitar I was involved in producing became middle-aged. It gives a slight fever and a feeling of excitement to me, but if it goes too far, it will not be excitement. There is a great possibility that you will become a god of guitar, or even a Buddha, due to myocardial infarction. Cool, Objectively confront the finished product.

The moment I picked it up, I opened the box and checked what kind of guitar was made from the outside ... "Light !!!!" The biggest feature of this guitar, "lightness", that you can experience before checking the grip feel and appearance of the neck. Yes, one of the goals was a lightweight guitar. That summer day when I selected the materials. The first stage has passed. Then, when you play it down raw with Jalan, the vibration is transmitted from corner to corner of the lightweight body, and the balance is perfect. A few minutes to enjoy the live sound without going through the amplifier for a while. The solid middle sound that comes from the texture of the straight neck is so great that you can feel the sound even with your left hand. Naturally, the ash body, which has a good sound that is directly transmitted to your belly, makes the overall total balance feel even closer to VINTAGE. And finally plugged into the amp. Since I was convinced that the material was good this time, I did not specify the pickup in particular (I considered replacing the pickup I like later and to keep the selling price down), I left it to Mr. TOKAI, but it is really Matchon. Good TWANG sound. The genuine TOKAI pickup does not have a strange habit, but rather it seems to output the goodness of the material obediently, which can be said to be a miscalculation. It's more than you can imagine, it's more than you can imagine. The materials and parts are specified in the specifications, but is it a business that can make a passion for making guitars with attention to detail? A polite work that does not make you feel any compromise even if you look closely. The awesomeness that every detail of the part exists to create a single sound.

Total balance and neck feeling when playing, familiar with amps The wood that I saw in front of me at the factory, such as the goodness of the ash peculiar to when it was done The board of Npeace Ash and the maple neck material of the grain are the skills and processes of the people of the TOKAI factory with Japanese custom shops. We have opened our eyes as a musical instrument that has been beautifully completed by the staff. You can say it.

When a guitarist picks up a new guitar, a new guitar from there It is a common story that the story begins. But that At the beginning of the story, a lot of passion was added to this guitar. It is out in the world with a story. You also get this guitar and produce the continuation of the story Isn't it.

Please see this page for details.

Tokai HST-MIJ LTD ASH STW / M
Tokai HTE-MIJ LTD ASH STW / M

see you.

by Moda

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After digging through this thread and a bit through the history I got the impression that there are doubts whether or not someone could've even had a CNC router in 1977, or if they meant CNC by "NC" (not that it matters anyway):

Punch-card "programmed" NC machines have been around forever, and CNC machines were one of the booming products of the 70s. The "C" in CNC should not be confused with the complexity of a modern "Turing machine" all-purpose computer - all it does is controlling motors to perform pre-programmed movements, following a digitally stored set of coordinates. As such it is probably even more specialized than a programmable pocket calculator. The machines were already there for decades, just their little brain got changed during the 60s and 70s. :)

Anyone recognize this logo?

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Or this one on the front of the table.

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The first one is really hard, the second one, sure, that's the Cat's Eyes logo. :)

Here's a newer CNC machine picture from the Tokai Onchi factory:

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The characteristic heads make it look like a Shoda 516, which was introduced only 1983 though.



But the Chinese tour stated that the Onchi factory has 5 more CNC routers/mills among others....

The woodworking department of Tokai Endi Factory has 6 electronic CNC machine tools, 2 heavy-duty cutting machines, 1 vacuum compressor, 2 wood grinding machines, 2 single-axis milling machines, 2 hand-held planers, and automatic planing machines. 1, 1 double-column vertical lathe, 3 routers, 4 wood cutting machines, 4 drilling machines, 1 hydraulic press, and a wood drying room. The south side of the carpentry department is the painting department, the east side is the metal department, and the west side is the assembly department.

...and the other (and oldest) images show multi-head machines like that Shoda 516. To me, there is no doubt the machines shown in the early catalogs are CNC machines.

Here's a short list of CNC machine manufacturers, partularly mills/routers/VMCs available in the 70s, most of them Japanese (from someone recalling some of those from the top of his head here):

Acroloc, Bridgeport Boss, Matsuura 500, Makino, Mazak, Mori, Fadal, Hitachi, K & T, Shizuoka

Not all of them had matching products as early as 1977 when I checked a few of their company history sites but the list is far from being complete, and identifying these machines from the very few existing images by comparing them with whatever Google finds when you look for "vintage CNC machines" or something is asked a bit much (I tried hard!). They were mentioned at the very beginning of the replica era, we can see them on early catalog pics, and they were certainly not controlled by someone playing a flute. :)

The point is that Tokai had obviously invested big money in this type of machines a few years earlier than what the internet believes when they were used first in the (Japanese*) industry, and by whom. Not sure if that was the sole motive to get them but mass-producing exact replicas of painstakingly measured and analyzed guitars could sure use machines that could replicate parts with both precision and speed. Maybe it was the other way around - they bought these machines and looked for ways to utilize them to full capacity. I'm sure we're all glad they did!

* Forgot to add, here's a TGP thread saying that Peavey used CNC for something like cutting speaker holes as early as 1975 (doesn't make sense, does it?) and for their boat anchor guitar bodies, here's a 1981 Fender Fullerton factory tour showing a CNC router, which is at least some document, but so far I couldn't find out when it got there.
 
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Notice what this flyer that is apparently from 1978 says:

Select solid maple and mahogany is carved by incredibly precise computerized machine tools to the exact dimensional contours or the original 1958 model.


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