CNC At Tokai?

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I may not have gone back far enough...

Just translated this passage from the 1979 catalog (Vol.2).



"Fully demonstrating craftsmanship, the body material undergoes a strict material selection check, and only those that pass it are processed.

Both the maple arched top and the mahogany back use only a single plate, and you can get a large and sustaining sound even with raw sounds. All the details, such as the round top and the dimensions of the hole for wiring, are exactly the same as the 58 standard. Never miss a hidden spot.

*Computers have been introduced to eliminate variation in these body constructions and to always maintain the highest accuracy.

We have made it possible to create an arched shape on the surface, which is considered to be extremely difficult to process, and we were able to use it in all models."



That would mean they may have had CNC in 1978...

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reborn old on the mylespaul forum:

Feb. 1, 2014

From the FAQ: Tokai Gakki: ... (1st CNC LP's in 1982)*

*Japanese CNC manufacturing accounted for 40% of the guitar making process, 60% of the guitar making process was still done by hand including planing, fretting, joining, and assembly.

I honestly think CNC manufacturing gets an undeserved bad rap.
Yes, there is something special about craftsmanship of a well built vintage guitar over computer automation, but to me, it's honestly difficult to see a difference between a builder's hand directing a cutting tool within the confines of a template or jig or computer controlled motors doing the same thing without the need of of a template or jig.
Craftsmen didn't whittle components with carving knifes after all. :D

If anything, there is a greater chance of repeatable accuracy with CNC'd components because less tool setup is involved, so things like tenon joints, neck profiles, guitar shapes and thicknesses are more likely to have closer fit tolerances.
Well over half of guitar building processes are still done by hand using either method.


https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/tokai-facts-theory-photos-id-thread.167940/page-13
 
This is fascinating. I hadn't seen this before.

I am unsure of the date of this flyer, but beleive it is from 1978? Maybe 1979?

But look what it says:

"THE BODY Tokai features solid alder on all ST models. Three dimensional computerized machine tooling produces a body shape and contour exactly the same as guitars made during those vintage years. Tokai's craftsman work to tolerances never before accomplished in guitar production."

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http://mycoolguitars.com/mij/tokai-guitar-catalog-pages-and-specs/
 
Love Your OCD, man!

BTW, if, while researching/translating, You should find any info (catalogues or elsewhere) on the woods used, what types of mahog and rosewood etc, that would be most appreciated! And probably worth it’s own thread 😉
 
Sherlock Holmes strikes again! Great job researching Tokai's use of CNC machines to make their guitars potentially right from the start of their golden era. I wonder if they even used CNC machines for their top LS models like the LS-200 & LS-150 when they were first introduced in 1979?
 
Love Your OCD, man!

BTW, if, while researching/translating, You should find any info (catalogues or elsewhere) on the woods used, what types of mahog and rosewood etc, that would be most appreciated! And probably worth it’s own thread 😉
I've seen discussion of flamed maple/tiger maple or tora moku tops. I posted that in its own thread.

Tora Moku Tramoku Tiger or Flamed Maple

I have seen mention of Jacaranda, but never Brazilian rosewood per se.

Then that goes into discussions of what jacaranda is and what they mean when they say that.

WHY Do Tokai & Tokai Sellers List Jacaranda as Brazilian

Like when solid maple tops on LPs translate as "veneer".

"Veneer" vs. "Laminte" In Japanese Translations

Seems I have seen a distinction for Honduras mahogany on some models.

As guitar hiro says, if it is not specified assume it is African mahogany.

MAHOGANY
 
BTW, if one of the goals in using CNC from very early on was to reproduce the exact 1958 shape I would very much like to know which guitar exactly was chosen to be the "shape prototype", since Gibson's carving and shaping on the original bursts was done by hand and thus varies slightly (look at the measurements table in the BoB)
 
Yep.

There’s an interesting interview on line with Dan Smith about him sourcing old Fenders to replicate and how variable the examples he was seeing were and how he made those decision.

It is suspected by some folks on here that Fender shared specs while they were in negotiations.

Another member on here had said that the guitarist from Cheap Trick who also was a vintage guitar collector may have shared some of his guitars.

Rick Nielsen and Tokai

Obviously there are lots of collectors in Japan.

There were also pilgrimages to the US to buy vintage instruments. Quite possibly commissioned by folks at Tokai or their friends.

Not sure if we will ever know for sure.
 
1981 Arch Top catalog section on LC models

●Amazing body processing: As you know, Tokai uses an amazing "computer-controlled 3D router". Craft with unparalleled mechanical strength and delicate craftsmanship.
 

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Obviously there are lots of collectors in Japan.

There were also pilgrimages to the US to buy vintage instruments. Quite possibly commissioned by folks at Tokai or their friends.

Some amazing stories in this thread at TGP. It's more than obvious that every factory had ways to study all of the originals very thoroughly. Particularly in the 80s, when the originals didn't cost as much as vintage Ferraris yet (hell, even vintage Ferraris were kind of affordable back then! :))

Some of the "computerized" machines can be seen in the Hamamatsu factory tour video too I think. That they had stuff like that doesn't necessarily explain anything tho, after all there are companies managing to botch neck pockets and mortises/tenons in more than one of their much more modern factories on a regular basis. 😈
 
Before I found this stuff while translating catalogs the prevailing "wisdom" on the internet was that Fujigen were the first guitar makers to use CNC machines for guitars. And I believe it was thought that began in 1984.

This thread obviously blows that out of the water.

And as noted here, CNC machines were actually built in Hamamatsu going back into the 1960s.

Connecting the . . . .
 
This thread obviously blows that out of the water.
Looks like it does, yes! :) I think I stated elsewhere how I stopped believing in the "prevailing wisdom" pretty soon. The CNC story may be just another result of the telephone game that "wisdom" often is - someone (over-)generalized what he read about Fujigen, someone cited that = 2 sources = wisdom. :)
 
Another example is "There was no lawsuit...."

Well actually there was. Just that no one had found it because it was a proxy war through distributors in the UK, Blue Suede Music (Tokai UK distributor) and CBS/ Arbiter (Fender distributor).

I found it after FenderDan posted an article mentioning the distributor, Blue Suede Music, having a courtroom battle but there were no specifics. Just more heresay without any evidence, or so I thought until I dug further and found it myself.

In just searching for info on Blue Suede I just happened to find a letter on Reverb (which I now own) that referred to legal action with Arbiter.

More digging and presto, a legal battle between Tokai and Fender in the UK where guitars were seized ending with a judgement that Tokai had to change its spaghetti logo mentioning the "Good Old Strat". I now have the original letter and posted the judges rulings on another thread.

This of course coincided with Fender awarding the contract in Japan to FujiGen so it gets interesting.

Lots of this stuff is buried. Especially legal stuff because of the way suits are brought and settled. But if you dig, and follow leads there is no telling what you will find.

The other two big mysteries in my mind are did Tokai actually file for bankruptcy and reorganization? I have yet to find an actual document, though I believe they changed the name of the company in 1983/84 which would indicate there was reorganization.

And the other mystery is what is the second number in the production codes.

And an added cherry on top would be finding some sort of paper describing the OEM relationship Tokai had with Fender beginning around 1992 which will probably never surface if it exists. But that would be wild. :cool:
 
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Yeah, the famous "1977 lawsuit". As for the buried stuff, the problem is access to Japanese documents without knowing what one's actually looking for and not speaking Japanese, just to find out if the needed documents even exist and whether or not they are accessible online. One of my occasional side quests / boss levels in this adventure and I'm not good at it, whereas all I'm looking for are old company registers, found some but not the right ones...yet.

Not sure about the source of the letter but a document describing the relationship between a Japanese and a US company could only come from the US I guess. The Japanese are usually really secretive particularly about anything business relations with others, with little exceptions (e.g. Kazuo Morioka's memoirs).
 
Yeah, the famous "1977 lawsuit".

No. That never went to trial.

I used to be a big Ibanez collector. Quite familiar with the Hoshino thing and it’s made me want to puke more than once.

No I’m talking about an actual lawsuit in front of a judge in a court where the judge ruled, and his ruling changed the course of guitar history. At least for Tokai.

If you’re not aware, check this out:


Bingo!!!!

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No. That never went to trial.

I thought you were familiar with me being familiar with the issue. :)

Apart from the fact that there was a) no "lawsuit" in 1977 and b) this "lawsuit" that never happened was only between Norlin and Elger Co./Hoshino USA...in the USA, meaningless for the rest of the world
I think the Tokyo High Court sentence in the 2000 "Gibson vs. Fernandes" lawsuit points at something. IIRC it basically says 1. Gibson came 20 years too late with their complaint and 2. that Japanese people are generally smart enough to distinguish between domestic brands making cheap copies of what they consider a "generic" design and genuine Gibson guitars using that design. (Full translation and interpretation (both utterly confusing though) can be found here.)
BTW here's the crappy 1977 newspaper article that was probably the source of that legend/misnomer, it may have been reprinted coast to coast back then:

Lawsuit_1977_News.jpg
 
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