Orville Questions - Muddy Sounding

I bought an Orville, not "by Gibson", Les Paul Custom some months ago. I spent a bunch of money on high-quality hardware, fret job, all new electronics etc (Duncan, Tone-Pros, Grover). Final outcome was a very dead/muddy/dark sounding guitar.

I own and have modified many high quality instruments, so I know what a good guitar sounds like. Does anyone else have an Orville that suffers the same poor tone?

I've noticed the poly finish is very thick on this guitar so I'm going to strip the finish and put a light coat of lacquer to see if that helps. Has anyone else tried this?

Thanks,
Dave

Well, the thicker the finish is, the better the guitar is supposed to sound... The finish is just there to protect the wood, not to make the guitar sound better.

Maybe you have a Korean orville, the quality is cheaper than on the japanese Orville from what I'v heard and you can do anything you want, it won't change. It's just a cheap guitar.

sorry

Actuallly, guitars sound better with thinner finishes. Thick finishes affect the woods ability to resonate and deadens tone.

I've never heard of a Korean Orville. Such a thing exists? Anyone else care to chime in?

Maybe you have a Custom with mahogany top and back and just hate that sound, because you're used to a maple top? How many parts does the back have? What's its weight? The wood influences the sound of a guitar much more than the finish in my opinion. I don't know if Orville really used thick polyester on their guitars back then, at least Tokai didn't (thin polyurethane finish on the medium class models).

PoorMan said:

Actuallly, guitars sound better with thinner finishes. Thick finishes affect the woods ability to resonate and deadens tone.

I've never heard of a Korean Orville. Such a thing exists? Anyone else care to chime in?

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oops, that's what I meant (in fact it's quit obvious in my post :?). Got confused between thick and thin... Sorry but I'm bad at english... :-?

actually, Korean orville has been produced during year 96. They say the quality is A LOT cheaper.

I didn't know there were Korean Orvilles...that's a bummer. Mine looks older than a '96 and I bought it from a (supposedly) reputible eBay dealer in Japan (who said it's from Japan) although I wouldn't know how to verify a date or country of manufacture. (He also said it was a great guitar, which it is not)

I have other all mahogany bodied guitars, but you make a very good point about the weight. My other guitars don't have as mush mass either, so I suppose that (in conjunction with the finish) could very well be the problem.

I own several high quality guitars (Gibson Custom shop etc). I guess my point is, I don't see how anyone who has played a quality guitar could possibly think this is anywhere clsoe to Gibson quality. Granted, I may have ended up with a junker while others are great.

Yeah, this is one of the thickest finshes I've ever seen. It has a pretty good sized chip on it and I can see exactly how thick it is. It's pretty bad.

Thanks for the info. I'm looking into a late 70's Burny LP right now. It's my understanding Burnys and early Tokais are the ones to get...I hope.

PoorMan said:

I own several high quality guitars (Gibson Custom shop etc). I guess my point is, I don't see how anyone who has played a quality guitar could possibly think this is anywhere clsoe to Gibson quality. Granted, I may have ended up with a junker while others are great.

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You're right. there might be some junker even in some good brands. To know if it's a Korean model is easy. Look at the serial number. If it on a sticker or there is no serial then it's a Korean.

personnaly, I'm not conviced by the Burny. But it might be just the models I've tried. Burny are difficult to trace so It's difficult to know exqctly what you're buying. Since most have no Serial numbers and there is several degrees in the quality of the models produced, you have to trust the seller or make some deep investigations and be pretty acurate to know what you're buying... :-?

No serial numbers, eh? Yeah that's a little scary. Do you have a personal fav branch Gibby replica? Specifically a LP Custom? I should open up a thread: "which LP Custom do you think is best/worst and why?"

Thanks again for your help. Info on these MIJ replicas is hard to come by.

Greco "super real" or "mint collection" are my favourites, along with the Tokai from the 80's, but those ones are being well known and overpriced these days.

Info on most Japan guitars is hard to come by , and some of the people selling them seem to make up facts to suit their inventory. I've owned a lot of Orville , OBG, greco and burny. Some were good ,some were dogs, one was- is- outstanding. I learned the expensive way, I don't buy anything without a serial number on it. The Asian dealers are no more trustworthy than the ebay sellers in this regard. I give the nod to the Greco LP's over the Burny's. But even with a pup change none of them really feel or sound like my Gibsons. As you know , standards and customs are completely different animals due to their basic construction. The best Japan guitar I ever owned - and still due- is an Orville By Gibson RI custom. Maybe mines a fluke , but it really does sound and feel just like my Gibson LP custom. My OBG has the binding OVER the frets. Weighs 8.8lbs. The binding is aged, and it's numbered just like a historic, five digits X--XXXX. It has an ebony board and jumbo frets.

try a pickup change ...the orville PU's are a bit so so..
some orvilles ..the later ones, 94/5/6 have a thicker finish..the earlier ones are thinner
..no ser no= korean (96 only)
the ObG reissues with fret binding and blank truss cover are the very best ..only made from 92-94(i think).. however most of the ObG's sound pretty good, as do the high spec greco's..and older (pre85) tokai LS-80 and above...
the orvilles are a bit more hit and miss...but generally as good as most of the burnys and the middle level greco's ..the top end greco's are a different matter..quite something ..same as most ObG's ..
I have had over 70 ObG's, orvilles, grecos tokai's and burny's ...

the above is a GENERAL rule of thumb and my own views...of course you get some dogs and some stunners ...just like gibson lol only not so many dogs as gibson ....really...

villager said:

try a pickup change ...the orville PU's are a bit so so..
some orvilles ..the later ones, 94/5/6 have a thicker finish..the earlier ones are thinner
..no ser no= korean (96 only)
the ObG reissues with fret binding and blank truss cover are the very best ..only made from 92-94(i think).. however most of the ObG's sound pretty good, as do the high spec greco's..and older (pre85) tokai LS-80 and above...
the orvilles are a bit more hit and miss...but generally as good as most of the burnys and the middle level greco's ..the top end greco's are a different matter..quite something ..same as most ObG's ..
I have had over 70 ObG's, orvilles, grecos tokai's and burny's ...

the above is a GENERAL rule of thumb and my own views...of course you get some dogs and some stunners ...just like gibson lol only not so many dogs as gibson ....really...

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Haaa nice, Villager!!, you resume exactly my thought and experience about the japanese brands! I would have put it exactly this way.

VIllager,

I did a pickup swap. Duncan 59 in the neck and a Duncan SH-14 bridge. Still muddy, undefined and dark sounding. Darkest sounding guitar I've ever heard. I've used this pickup combo in other guitars and loved the results.

I already started stripping the poly finish. I can paint it myself with lacquer for about 40 bucks in materials (and a lot of time and muscle) I'll try that as a last ditch effort and see how she turns out.

maybe its just a dark guitar some are
...easier to sell and go for another (earlier) one, or get an ObG, than strip and refin ...v hard work especially if the poly is thickly layered...

oops youve already started I see...try her naked for a bit ...ie no finish ..or maybe an oil rub ...just a thought..

Turns out I did get a Korean model...bummer.

Hi PoorMan!

I'd be very interested to hear some more about how the finish stripping is going - what you're using and how.

I've been thinking about about stripping my Orville LP (and seeing what's underneath the photoflame <g>), but I understand that removing the poly finish is a tricky thing to do.

Thanks,
Ian

Hey Ian,

Sanding poly takes a lot of time and muscle. I'm in the process of building 2 guitars and modding 2 others right now, so sanding the Orville has been put way back on the backburner. But I sanded through the side of the body to see if it was plywood. Nope, it's solid.

I just use good old sandpaper and muscle. Stripper is messy, and toxic. I've also not found a stripper that can get through poly satisfactorily. 3M foam sanding pads (paint stripping 60 grit) come in very handy for the arched top. I use an electric random sander with 150 grit on the back (stay away from the binding.) You'll have to attack anything near the binding by hand. The binding has clear coat so you can sand it a little, but I stay away from it as much as possible until I have all the other finish stripped. Masking off the binding during sanding adds a little extra protection.

I generally use 150 grit to strip all poly bodies (except the tops of carved top LPs, that's when I break out the 3M 60 grit foam sanding pads.) Always, always wear a mask. You'll be shocked how thick those poly finshes are.

But take it from me...It's a pain, takes forever and makes a mess. I don't recommend it unless you have a lot of time and are very patient. Most people get impatient and/or careless and end up messing up the the binding. You'd probably be better off selling it and buying and Orville by Gibson.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Hi PoorMan!

Thanks for that info - really appreciate it.

I was hoping there might be some magic method you'd discovered where the finish would almost fall off (without damaging the rest of the guitar) when shown the stripping solution. :wink:

Sounds like it's going to go on the back burner again as a rainy-day job.

All the best,
Ian

I've heard aircraft stripper works best on poly finishes. But even that isn't very effective. It's also deadly to guitar binding, so I wouldn't get it anywhere near a Les Paul. I might try it someday on a Fender style body.

If you decide to proceed I recommend sanpaper, muscle and taking your time.

PoorMan

have you experimented with changing the electronics? how about 1000k pots, or some cap changes?

How's the sound unplugged?