Gibson goes after Tokai

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/04/06/52442162.shtml?Element_ID=52442162

Who's next?

I just saw this too, but you beat me to posting it.

I guess that blows my chances of getting an LS 320 in the years to come. I don't want no overpriced Gibbo.

Gibson continues to increase the prices of their guitars, while lowering the quality of both the materials and assembly/building. Their Les paul classics are now made of more than 1 piece mahogany back, and possible 3 piece maple. When I emailed them asking how many pieces of mahogany is in the Les paul Standard, their reply was :

"Both Africa and South America provides Gibson with much Mahogany with a good, straight grain and evenness of color."

Looks like they are avoiding the question.

Now their Epiphones have moved production to China, in a company owned facility. I have been to Chinese factories, and I know for a fact that they pay regular workers less than $100 a month, usually for a 10 hour workday, 7 days a week. The new factory has also been built in a remote and underdeveloped area, where there aren't so many factories and worker pay is even cheaper. They charge the same amount for their Epiphones, not bringing the savings in production cost to the customer by even a minimal amount. I am estimating they charge more than 10 times the actual cost of making the guitar.

Where does this money go? To sue other companies so that Gibson can continue to put out a mediocre standard production line. :roll: The Les paul shape and design isn't even revolutionary. It's a singlecut jazzbox style made into a smaller solidbody. You don't see Bigsby sueing Gibson for copying their design, that early Merle Travis model that looks exactly like a les paul.

Ok I'm finished ranting.

who`s next indeed because there are a bunch of makers here doing the exact Gibson/Fender copy thing. What....sales down at Gibson and litigation is the new way to increase profits?

Like I said before... Can't compete in the marketplace so compete in the courtroom. :roll:

I didn't think they had any legal claim outside the US.

I don't think they were able to claim on Japan,but I don't know all Japanese laws in that particular.In my opinion this is a very clear sign Gibson is afraid of Tokai.And I agree about Gibson quality now,there could be some good Les Pauls but they are high overpriced and overrrated(bad fretwork ,bad nuts,wood not so selected as they claim....).Maybe Gibson could be demand by other companys too.Greed people!Who is next?

I don't believe that the majority of Tokai 'Les Paul' type owners really believe that a Tokai is a better guitar that a Gibson, they are less expensive which is why they sell. If Tokais were better then the used price would be higher, but it's not.
I don't deny that Gibson should pay more attention to quality, but if Tokai were so wonderful then their own designs would sell more, but everyone wants to pretend that what they play is a proper name guitar.
I like Tokais but they are copies.

firebird65 said:

I don't believe that the majority of Tokai 'Les Paul' type owners really believe that a Tokai is a better guitar that a Gibson, they are less expensive which is why they sell. If Tokais were better then the used price would be higher, but it's not.
I don't deny that Gibson should pay more attention to quality, but if Tokai were so wonderful then their own designs would sell more, but everyone wants to pretend that what they play is a proper name guitar.
I like Tokais but they are copies.

Click to expand...

yea, i tend to see it that way, too.

it's business......nothing personal!

Who's next, indeed ... (probably ESP and Brian Moore)

Will Fender go after G&L, which makes better Strats and Teles, IMO, than the Big F? What about custom makers like Callaham or De Temple?

If Gibson cut back production and dedicated itself to quality as Heritage has done, and simply built good instruments (besides their Custom Shop stuff) they wouldn't have PRS eating into their market. There was no major custom shop to speak of when they built the original Pauls; they were just well-made, assembly line guitars with generally better wood than we can get today, made by craftsmen who cared, and who were given the time to do it right. Granted, that was half a century ago, but some companies manage to build great stuff and keep prices somewhat in check.

I think Gibson is hurting itself in the long run, just to keep stockholders off its back. Such is the fate in many other US businesses as well.

America used to lead the world in design and ingenuity, but now we overpopulate the planet with corporate and patent attorneys. It's enough to make me want a Love Rock more than ever, and I'm not a Les Paul fan at all.

I'm glad that I have a few Silver Stars to play with at least, and don't need to drop $2500 to get a 69 Relic Custom Shop Strat for the same vibe and sound.

in Japan Used Tokais from the late 70s and the 80s are selling for more now than they did new. Personally...given a choice between a high end Gibson and a high end Tokai, I`d choose the Tokai. Had a Gibson PL standard... bought an Ornettes and sold the LP.
heres a pic of the Ornettes... in my opinion it is better made than the LP I had...
http://w1.422.telia.com/~u42235727/sneaky.htm#Ornetts

I'm with sneaky. The hi-end love rocks are better than gibsons, and the mid range LR's are good enough to warrant srious consideration over, say, an LP Studio.

Knowing how good tokai and PRS are, we should all be hearing loud and clear that gibson are running scared.

I do think that Gibson should reduce the number of Les Paul models that they produce and concentrate on doing one model wonderfully rather than 50 models that are variable in quality.

G&ls and PRS' are not exact replicas of anything else, they may be closely related to Gibsons or Fenders but at least they have made an effort to do something new.

Why are old Tokais worth so much now? Does that mean that Tokais standards have slipped and that new one are not as good?

I think folks have finally caught on over here that those Tokais were well made. It baffles me to see that the natives will pay anything to get US made Fenders & Gibsons... and believe me the companies know it and charge accordingly. Personally I just like the mojo of a good, old guitar thats been played.
Good point about cutting down on the number of models...something Fender could consider as well. Maybe they are just coasting on their reputations and have forgotten what customers really want. Don`t know.

When I was recently looking at both Love Rocks and Gibson LP's it was Gibson's wide range that put me off. Not that I didn't know what I was after pricewise and spec wise, but the inevitable refrain from shops was, 'no we haven't got one of those in, but we can get one for you...'. I just wanted to compare before I bought. Then one day a shop had in a the Classic I wanted, although not the colour, and I did compare it with a Tokai. And promptly bought a Tokai.

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure Tokai mave many loyal fans around the world and even if they go down for awhile, they'll be back....i hope.

Gibson introduces models (mostly ugly ones) that last a year or two and then get cut. There really is no consistency to even the Les Paul Standard. The LP studios confuse me, what with the smaller inlays, and special runs of figured tops etc. Too many little adjustments and unsold guitars sitting around the stores. I agree that they should stick to one way of making a model, and keep doing it the 'right' way.
Fender has a huge catalog, but that's because they don't split the American and Mexican models, unlike Gibson with the USA and Korean Epiphones. I sort of like how Fender offers a MIM vintage 50's 60's spec model, though it does cheapen the idea of reissue.

I've been looking at info on old Tokais, and I noticed that they haven't really changed the way their guitars are made. The old lower end love rocks were also laminated flame tops on a maple cap, two piece mahogany body, almost the same pickups, poly finish. The price has jumped from 60,000 yen to 80,000 in 20 years it seems. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Gibson LP standard on the other hand jumped to 2 or 3x the 1980's price.

I dont think that the standard Les Paul (not LP Standard) is much more expensive than it was 20 years ago, taking inflation into consideration, but the re-issues, signature models, fancy finishes, custom aged etc... are a crazy price, you could easily buy a beautiful genuine '56 Les Paul for less money, there are a lot of strange guitar buyers out there.
Luckily I bought my Les Paul when guitars were un-cool (1980) so I got a 5 year old gold-top for ?200, I love it, my only problem is that I don't have any kids to inherit it (in a lot of years I hope) but I'll keep trying.

hmmm, i sold a gibson R8, bought 2 1980 tokai lps. i'm way happier with the tokai guitars. they sound better and play better. what's not to like about that? that said, i still have a gibby lp jr, and a cs-336. both fine guitars,,,but the highend gibby lp just didn't do it for me.