Tops ??? Sycamore vs Maple

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little-odgie

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been perusing the specs of the current UK available Love Rocks ... a question ... what's the difference between a sycamore and maple top apart from the obvious pattern of the grain? are there any tone differences? Why more cash for the sycamore topped LS70F???

:roll:
 
All the MIJ love rock models sold in the UK have maple tops. The LS75F has a sycamore veneer (paper thin sheet of wood) on top of the maple to give it the flame (tiger stripe) appearance. The only reason the LS75F and LS80Q are more expensive is their appearance due to the use of veneers. The jury is out on whether they affect tone, but if they did have any effect it would be bad - the veneers are glued on and glue is not good for tone. Also the maple underneath *may* be of poorer quality as it's not on show and doesn't need to look good or well matched.

But if you can't live without flame or quilt, they do what you need.
 
In addition to Paladin's (completely correct) post, I'd like to say that, as far as I know, sycamore is a maple species. So it is maple :)
 
I always thought the LS series had maple 'caps', not veneers, in fact just like Gibson Les Pauls. The cap is a half inch or so layer of maple bonded to the top of the Love Rock and Les Paul mahogany main body. Maple is a very good tone wood and a cap shouldn't be confused with a thin veneer. The various finishes, flame quilt etc, are according to the type and cut of maple used, again like the Gibson version. I believe the cheaper Epiphones do have a veneer top though. As regards glue affecting tone, well, you can buy a Strat or Tele that have no glue in their construction at all. But then again a $2000 top line acoustic guitar couldn't get by without it. Does it affect tone? Only if badly applied perhaps.
 
my own thoughts were that I preferred the LS65 anyway which has maple - bit of a traditionalist! I can't say I've ever heard of sycamore being used before but maybe news just travels slow down here.

Funny isn't it, the only local dealer who stocks Tokai thinks it's cool to add 100 to the list price of his guitars. Maybe I'll keep an eye on ebay.
 
Don't think Dorset has the monopoly on expensive Tokai's. Here in Yorkshire it just isn't possible to find a bargain. They simply aren't discounted like other guitars. About ?700-?799 depending on model is what I see for the Japanese builds. I got mine new on ebay for a 'good' price and bidding on second hand ones can get very close to new price.
 
Steve250SWB said:
I always thought the LS series had maple 'caps', not veneers, in fact just like Gibson Les Pauls. The cap is a half inch or so layer of maple bonded to the top of the Love Rock and Les Paul mahogany main body. Maple is a very good tone wood and a cap shouldn't be confused with a thin veneer. The various finishes, flame quilt etc, are according to the type and cut of maple used, again like the Gibson version.
Indeed they all have a thick maple cap. However, the LS80F and LS85Q have a paper-thin flamed or quilted veneer on top of the cap. It is real wood though, unlike many cheap copies that feature a so-called 'photo top'.
 
Steve250SWB said:
As regards glue affecting tone, well, you can buy a Strat or Tele that have no glue in their construction at all. But then again a $2000 top line acoustic guitar couldn't get by without it. Does it affect tone? Only if badly applied perhaps.

Yes, but it's not smeared all over the top on acoustics is it? :wink:

Anyways, like I said the jury's out. Until someone refinishes a solid wood topped guitar with a veneer top we'll never really know.
 
"Yes, but it's not smeared all over the top on acoustics is it?"

Everybody loves a smart alec ;-) No, it isn't 'smeared' all over the top, especially on the Love Rock. You are absolutely right. It is administered in a controlled and metered fashion in order to do the job, but no more, or no less than needed. Its the idea that 'we'll never really know' that bugs me though. We do know, and you don't have to cover a perfectly good solid top acoustic to know it. It is written in guitar and instrument making history. How many Stradivari violins have had a new fingerboard glued on in their lifetime. All. And that is with ancient glue formula's. I guess it must make them second rate though, until the 'jury' comes back from lunch.
 
Don't be daft, I'm not saying all guitars should be glue free. But glue doesn't exactly have very good properties of resonance, so the less used the better all things being equal. Why do you think solid wood and 1 piece bodies are so highly coveted? And if you're talking love rock with veneer VS love rock without, that's about as equal as you can get without retopping the same guitar.
 
Anyways said:
Scott Lentz, the well known and highly respected luthier from California, has refinished early fifties Les Paul Goltops with bookmatched flame maple veneer, converting them to late fifties specs. I'd say if it's OK with him, knowing his reputation, it should be acceptable for us.

Now, having said that, my '84 LS60 with a flame veneer top does sound terrific, but the best sounding Tokai I ever played was an 80's Goldtop - solid maple top, no veneer. So, yeah, the jury's still out.
 
"Don't be daft, ..............."

But the whole thing is daft. Glue = bad? So what does a nice smooth coat of lacquer equal? Its 'glue' in another form, spread all over the guitar, not just the top. Pickups are screwed to the top, holes routed in it for wiring and pots, a neck is glued on, it gets hot, it gets cold. A guitar body gets some stick before you even pluck a note. A layer of thin veneer glued in turn onto a glued on cap ain't going to make much difference :)
 
Steve250SWB said:
"Don't be daft, ..............."

But the whole thing is daft. Glue = bad? So what does a nice smooth coat of lacquer equal? :)

Yup, that's bad too. A tech I know used to work at Patrick Eggle before they went down the drain and he told me about an experiment that PE did. They took 4 guitars and tried different finishes on them - unfinished, nitro, poly and polyester. They sounded best in that order, but unfinished guitars are uncommon for obvious reasons.

So a veneer + glue is going to make that restrictive layer even thicker, and glue probably has worse tone properties than polyester.

The question here is does that extra layer of glue make a difference in tone. My answer was that if it does (it may not, given everythig else that's going on) then the effect of adding the veneer would be bad. Does that sound reasonable?
 
Also worth pointing out that the LS60 (plain maple cap) guitars have 3 peice mahogany body whereas the LS70 (veneer types) have a two peice
mahogany body.

So does the extra glue in the mahogany back have as big an effect as the extra glue for the veneer ???

Given that the mahogany is the major contributor to the tone (being much thicker) I would prefer fewer glued peices on the back. I think there is a fair case for arguing that the veneer is no different tonally to say a gold paint finish.

Blimey!

GB
 
Novosel said:
Scott Lentz, the well known and highly respected luthier from California, has refinished early fifties Les Paul Goltops with bookmatched flame maple veneer, converting them to late fifties specs. I'd say if it's OK with him, knowing his reputation, it should be acceptable for us.
That's right. I read someone on the Les Paul Forum who had a similar thing done to (I think) a 1953 Les Paul Goldtop. It was redone to 59 specs and was fitted with a thin flamed veneer. According to both the guy that made it (might have been Lentz) and the guy who owned the guitar, the veneer was completely 'sonically transparent'.
 

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