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Are there mistakes in the LoveRock Serial Numbers???
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ian
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Herman ? photos are always helpful, but it may be enough if you just describe the guitar, eg the serial number (inked or impressed?) .

Ian.
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ned
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great conversation.

Ian, As I'm re-working the main site I'll include your findings in the serial number sections.

Where are you people finding Tokai's for $250?

Ned
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ian
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ned, thanks for the words of encouragement.

It does seem there is now clear evidence that inked numbers were used on early LS models c.1980, and personally I don?t know what evidence there ever was to the contrary. Still I remain cautions about such things, and I?d like to see a few more examples before saying anything is certain.

Interesting perhaps that Gibson themselves used inked numbers on the Les Paul Classic re-issued from c.1990 ? that guitar is a copy of the original 1960 Les Paul, but I don?t know if the originals had inked numbers in 1960?

Ian.
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herman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:02 pm    Post subject: my tokai updates Reply with quote

hi,

well ive just gotten round to taking pics of the guitar but dont know where to put them for any of you to see. but i think the serial number is 2010834. its stamped. the tuners say deluxe on them with a single ring. the bindings have aged till yellowish. so i think its gotta be old..
the neck pickup is yellowish PAF gotoh, but the bridge is a seymour duncan. I think its an invader puckup (hex pole pieces). in the neck pickup cavity it says CS -71. apart from that its got some scratches and cracks in the finish. i think the neck has a slight bow in it! how can i be sure? frets are really worn (need to get new ones.. but afraid the repair guy might screw up the aged binding, looks really cool!!!! ). and its also got the PCB in the control cavity.

hope that will be enough description to help.. Thanks!!
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LawsuitFan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer Ian's question, I do believe that original 1960 Les Pauls had inked-on serial numbers. According to this site (which seems to match my memory) Gibson began imprinting serial numbers in 1961:

http://www.intersilo.com/gibson.asp
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ian
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Herman ? well first I?ve never posted any photos, so you?ll have to email Ned for info. on that (must get that sorted myself lol). But,? serial 201xxxx implies 1982, the Deluxe stamped tuners are correct, ditto the Gotoh PAF, but the SD pup is presumably a replacement. ?CS? stands for Cherry Sunburst, but I don?t know what the ?71? is. PCB in control cavity should mean it?s LS50 or LS60 (LS80 & above had discrete caps c.1980 - but afaik there?s no quality difference between pcb vs. discrete).

To check if neck is straight - rest but-end of the body on your feet (ie with headstock upwards) & look/sight down the edge of the neck/Fretboard ? try that from all angles along both edges of the Fretboard. If neck bows slightly downwards then that may be deliberate attempt to stop fret buzz (ie added ?Relief?), but in any case it?s probably easy to straighten via. the truss rod, & if it needs a re-fret then you need a good Tech anyway ? if you were still in London I?d recommend Charlie Chandler, but in Malaysia?? Re-fret shouldn?t interfere with the binding in any way, unless binding is actually over the fret ends, in which case it?s more likely to be LS200 than LS60 lol .

Ian.
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ian
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi LawsuitFan ? many thanks for the info . Yep I did a little more checking on the Les Paul Forum and it seems ALL Gibson Les Paul?s had inked numbers up until late-1960 or early 61.

From around 1980-82, Gibson themselves were experimenting with limited numbers of various vintage LP re-issues, eg ?Heritage-80? (in 3 versions), ?Guitar Trader Model? (47 made), ?Leo? (c.800 made), ?Jimmy Wallace Model?, ?KM Standard 82? etc. I don?t know if any of these used inked numbers or whether Tokai took notice of this circa. 1980, but I?ll do some more checking (all info. from Mike Slubowski at LPF) .

Ian.
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LawsuitFan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ian,

As Mike may have mentioned, there was a recent article in Vintage Guitar Magazine about the guitars (Jimmy Wallace, KM, Leo, etc..) you mentioned. Please let me know if I can help with any additional research on the Gibson end. (I wonder if I still have that issue at home? House cleaning is dangerous business!)

Since you mention neck cavity text, are you aware of any resources posted for deciphering these markings? As near as I can tell, my '79 LS-100 bears the following:

100 0S
10 26

And my final question of the day: I have in my possession a pair of chrome-plated humbuckers reputedly out of a vintage Tokai LS. The only markings on them are a number inked on the bottom: 15227. Does this ring any bells with anyone?
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herman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi ian!!

THANKS for the information! .
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ochay
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:54 am    Post subject: Tokai CLONE-Oh No !! Reply with quote

Loudmouse wrote:
Photos of my Love Rock
http://home.earthlink.net/~glopresti
Copy and paste into address bar if it doesn't link direct. Last photo is of the original pickups, now on a different guitar.


I new it !! That's not even a real Love Rock, Says Tokai though ! This is a Clone Tokai-Look at the neck joint(Exactly like a Greco) and the Inked Ser number doesn't jive. Comming up next I'd bet is a Clone Tokai Reborn.
Thought u ought to know !!
Mike
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ned
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Send the pics to me ned at tokairegistry.com and I can post them in the pic portion of the main site.

Ned
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Loudmouse
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A clone of a clone. For those of us too "thrifty" to buy a real Tokai. Why buy the original when some really good copies are being made?
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ochay
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose you can just get you an Epiphone ??? Real pretty !!
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Loudmouse
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I sold it and got my $50 bucks back!
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supernout
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loudmouses’ axe is from 1980. Absolutely no doubt about it. Just take a look at the tuners . No flat but beveled tops. Take one off. You can prove the early '80 dating by the small tuner pin and the additional hole between the two tuner drillholes.




A theory :

Love Rocks with inked serials were built somewhere else IMO. Probably Tokai haven’t had enough bodies or some other companies haven’t had enough necks. The necks are definitely Tokai originals but the bodies are tooled completely different. So I wouldn’t call these guitars Tokai clones but Tokai hybrids. Tokai could have sent the necks and some of the hardware to another factory that completed the guitar building process.
Some of those hybrids came with the Tokai-style combination of original lightweight tailpiece & late ‘50 abr-1 bridge w/o retainer wire, others with heavyweight tailpiece & more ordinary bridges. Some had PCB’s and others only pots and caps because the PCB’s simply didn’t fit into the control cavities. Hex screw type Gotoh Pu’s were used very often.
Since the serialisation is the last step of the manufacturing process it makes sense to me that those which completed the guitar would serialize it.
I have even seen Burny necks on Tokai bodies manufactured during that time. So it seems that the three companies Tokai, Greco and Burny/Fernandes “helped” each other to some certain extend.

Some of the early changes:

• 1978 : very first models had two or even three piece necks, later 1p – inked stamped serials – “les paul” (thick) reborn logo – cremish double ring tuners – TRC type 1 – thick Tokai logo

• 1979 : impressed serials – “les paul” (thin) reborn logo – greenish double ring tuners

• 1980 : reborn old logo / love rock logo - greenish single ring tuners – TRC type 2

• 1981 : thinner Tokai logo
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