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Are there mistakes in the LoveRock Serial Numbers???
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luis
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Joined: 15 Sep 2001
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOTO pups are not coming on 2.000's LS-70 I think.Weren't they from early 80's?
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ian
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Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 834
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Loudmouse. OK, well first a disclaimer ? there are many others here with more knowledge than I have about these guitars, so maybe they?d like to chip in? Second, an apology ? this a very loooonnnnggg reply ?

1.Serial Number ? we discussed this above & it remains the main point of contention. Supernout made a cryptic comment about the inked S/N?s, he explains it here http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2788&highlight=inked See also this thread re. early Reborn with no number at all ? http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1213&highlight=stamped


2.Double Ring Tuners ? to repeat, AFAIK those tuners were not used after 81. If that?s right, and if the tuners are original to your guitar, then the guitar is 80/81 for certain. Supernout once mentioned Tokai re-issues from 2001, but I don?t know if that could explain guitars like yours? Maybe someone else would care to comment on that?

3.Circuit Board in Control Cavity ? this is always seen on early LS50/60 Reborn & early Love Rock (LS80 & upwards got discrete caps). However, I?ve no idea when, or if, Tokai ever stopped using the board ? maybe they still use it on some models today? The cap may give a clue ... maybe someone could id a date for that?

3. Pickups ? Tokai used Gotoh right from the start, from 1978 to present day (though a few higher models had Duncan?s or DiMarizio?s, & current LS320 has SD Seth Lover?s). I?d never noticed any pups with Hex Key adjustment, but see these two threads from Dana re. ?original 1981" LS50 Goldtop with hex adjusters http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2416&highlight=pole and
http://www.backyardbullet.com/GT.html .

Note also the very recent thread from Japscot, who describes his Love Rock as having hex poles (81 Serial ie S/N=101xxxx). Maybe the Hex adjusters were common at a particular date ? someone here must surely know about those?

4. Truss Rod Cover ? photo shows typical MIJ ?bell-shaped? truss cover, used from very first Les Paul Models of 1977-78 up to present day (different cover on MIK). Exactly same cover on my 82 Love Rock.

5. Pickup Cavity ? I haven?t seen those holes before, but I haven?t seen inside enough Tokais to know if it was done a certain dates (early or late). Anyone?

6. General Appearance ? Old guitars always show signs of age, even if they?ve spent most of their life in the case. Metal parts tarnish, plastic parts discolour, finish may become dull etc. So in most cases it?s easy to tell a 3 year old from a 20 year old. The signs are always there, & in many ways this is truly the best guide (regardless of S/N or fittings), however, some guitars do remain in deceptively fine condition despite the passing of decades, so it does need an experienced eye.

7. Maple Top - OK, here?s a crazy sounding comment?.your top appears to be 3-piece unmatched plain-grain, & looks to me very similar to tops on LS50 Reborn & Reborn Old from 1979-80. Although these tops are unmatched & without flamed stripes, the grain does have an attractive swirled pattern which is often quite prominent & quite characteristic. Of course I?m not saying your guitar is a re-badged Reborn, but the top may just be a clue to use of the same wood at a similar early date.


In summary ? none of this is conclusive. And as we?ve said here many times, apart from the S/N there?s often very little to distinguish the date or model of a Tokai Les Paul (unless it has a sticker, or model/date id in pup cavity ? or unless it has early Reborn decal). But, leaving the S/N out of the equation, & apart from my lack of knowledge over Hex-key poles, I?d have to say your guitar looks to me just like a straightforward early 1980-81 Love Rock LS50.

Ian.
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Loudmouse
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Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 169
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian, Wow, Thanks for the reply. You sure gave me a lot of information and a lot to think about. I really liked your comments about telling the age by the general appearance of a guitar. Mine has just enough tarnish and discoloration to make me think it's an older one, but, who knows. All I know is she's a keeper, even if she did lie about her age.
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ian
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Joined: 13 Aug 2003
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Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha,.... it's like the ?Butler Report?...nobody lied, they just got "confused" lol (topical UK politics) - lovely guitar, of course you want to keep her .

All the best,

Ian.
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Wild Bill
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Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:03 pm    Post subject: My Les Paul Reborn serial numbers Reply with quote

I just bought two Reborns from Ken (seikosuru on eBay). The LS50 has a serial number 000### stamped in ink, and I'm convinced it is a 1980, as Ken said it was. The LS60 has a number of 800####, and I think it is a 1978, though I believe Ken thought it was also an '80. I bought that one off his website. Hope I didn't mix up the serial numbers. Both guitars are in the shop getting a thorough inspection and setup, so I can't double check. It should be noted that I had to ask him if both guitars had one-piece mahogany bodies. He had to look, so I'm not sure if he's a Tokai expert. But, then, who is? They set me back $1760 with shipping, but I feel they were a good investment. It should be noted that I've only been "playing" for seven months, though I now own seven guitars. I also have an '83 LS50 Love Rock I bought from Ken. The difference in the quality of construction of my Tokais versus my '96 MIJ Fender '54 re-issue Strat, '03 Nashville Deluxe Tele is astounding. I can feel much more resonance through the neck on the Tokais, and now I feel like I'm driving a Panzer instead of a Sherman tank. I like my new Burny ES-335 clone, and I'm a fan of a '79 MIJ Mansfield SG clone, but the Fenders will both be sold. I'm hoping people away from this site will start "drinking the Kool-Aid" and discover what we Robert Fripp, Billy Gibbons and some others already know. With any luck, these guitars will skyrocket in value so I can tell the wife I don't need a 401K retirement account, just a large collection of insured vintage Tokais. See where Gibson is AGAIN suing Tokai and PRS (June '04). Hope it generates even more demand for our Tokais. Any comments on my serial numbers would be welcome. Glad I found the 10-pound sound before these meanies go for $5K apiece. Thanks, Bill
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One of my Les Paul Reborns is serial number 000xxxx and is an '80, according to seikosuru (Ken) on eBay, who has sold me several Tokais.
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ian
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Joined: 13 Aug 2003
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Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill, do be careful about guitars as an investment. Collectors markets are fickle. They can change very quickly.

As you see from this thread, the inked numbers are a matter of debate. But .... yes, 800xxxx should indicate 1978 with decal ?Les Paul Reborn?, and 000xxxx should indicate 1980 with decal saying ?Reborn Old? - does yours say ?Old??.

Any chance of a photo of the 1980? Should be interesting, because an inked number with Reborn decal (or Reborn Old) either means the inked numbers are genuinely from 1980 or else somebody has faked your Reborn decal (unless Tokai re-issued their own copies! ).

Ian.
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Wild Bill
Plucker


Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:12 am    Post subject: Les Paul Reborns Reply with quote

Ian: I have a long shot photo of my two Reborns and '83 Love Rock. I won't be able to get headstock or 22nd fret stamp photos to you until my Reborns are back from the luthier. My e-mail address is wwl80@hotmail.com if you'd like to send me your e-mail address so I can forward the photo I have. Thanks for responding. Bill
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One of my Les Paul Reborns is serial number 000xxxx and is an '80, according to seikosuru (Ken) on eBay, who has sold me several Tokais.
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ian
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Joined: 13 Aug 2003
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Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill ? thanks for the offer of photos, but no hurry. The 1980 Reborn is of particular interest - front & back shots of the headstock would be great .

All the best,

Ian.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill - many thanks for emailing the photos to me. Any chance of showing them here on the Forum? I think they'd prove interesting & shed light on the issue of inked numbers .

Ian.
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ochay
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Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 713
Location: So. Cal.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: 2001 Love Rocks Reply with quote

I'm tickeled pink Peter Mac-put his foot down on the stamped serial numbered Love rocks that have been turing up on eBay-I actually bought one and it was sweet-I've been collecting Toks since 99 and have never seen a stamped ser number till the Japanese folks started selling on eBay. Just a quick note about LS-120's that I have owned/bought/sold from 1980 up to 1981-the 7 LS 120's that I have are all solid flamed maple tops- I'm not sure who's saying the 120's may have veneer flame tops-again I'm from the show me state-show me if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Mike
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ochay ? interesting part here is that ?Wild Bill? now has some very clear photos of a Reborn with inked number. I hope he'll post them here, because they should lead to a clearer understanding of this . Maybe not the final word, but an interesting discovery .

Ian.
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ian
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Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 834
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, well I waited a week, but seems like Wild Bill has lost interest in showing photos of his Reborn with inked S/N . Shame because it does shed important light on the question of dates for those guitars.

Bill did email me with very clear close-up photos, & I could post them here, but I guess they?re really still his property? However, I suppose the following description is in order:-

Overall Appearance ? the guitar is an early LS60 Reborn with sunburst finish. It?s in good condition, but close-up photos show the expected tarnish/grime/wear consistent with age. More specifically ?

Decals ? headstock decals appear absolutely correct ? standard Tokai MOP inlaid logo & gold-screened ?Les Paul Reborn? decal ? all with correct placement & size etc. I compared this closely to other Reborns & Love Rocks of known vintage, and it looks fine.

Tuners ? the headstock has double-ring Gotoh tuners (stamped "Tokai" in single line) which appear to be original to the guitar ? photos show no extra holes & no extra shadows - so no sign of ever being changed.

Serial Number ? the number is 800xxxx & is inked in black on the rear of the headstock (in normal position - the "8" is a little smudged). According to the Registry that number corresponds to 1978, however, AFAIK the double-ring tuners are only typical for 1980 to early 81, and most Reborns are from 79 or 80 (AFAIK 1978 was mostly the elusive ?Les Paul Model?). So I wonder if the inked 800xxxx actually indicates 1980, in which case the 1980 S/N?s are more complex than we previously thought.

60-Impressed Fretboard ? the end of the Fretboard is impressed ?60?, which is invariably taken as a sure sign of authenticity. Only slight question mark here is that the number is not cleanly impressed, so it?s just about arguable that it could have been added by someone. The two-piece plain-sawn centre-matched top is exactly as it should be for an early LS60.

In summary ? the guitar appears completely genuine & appears to confirm that the inked numbers are indeed from the early period, circa 1978-1980 (unless Tokai re-issued their own re-issues) .

Ian.
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Loudmouse
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Joined: 28 Jun 2004
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Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another Reborn with an inked serial number?!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38086&item=3741716993&rd=1
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ian
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at that, but couldn?t make out if it?s inked or not? Not sure if that case is old or new? Just to confuse things ? some eBay sellers highlight the impressed number with black felt-tip pen, ie so it shows clearly in photos .

Ian.
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herman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:41 am    Post subject: What a coincidence Reply with quote

Hi,

Ive been looking through the tokai registry for a year now as to what my model of tokai love rock is. I bought the guitar second hand when i was in UK 3 years ago(moved back to malaysia), after seeing pictures of loudmouse's guitar i was convinced i had the same thing.. so it cant be some weird guitar i paid 250 pounds for.. but my serial number is different..and i got a seymour duncan in the bridge! ill try to get some pics.. IF ANYBODY will help me out there?
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