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New Rosewood CITES regulations from January 2nd 2017

 
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Diamond
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Joined: 23 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: New Rosewood CITES regulations from January 2nd 2017 Reply with quote

Looks like the guitar world has been turned upside down.

This is not fun, it's a bit of a nightmare for manufacturers and distributors/dealers, etc.

From January 2nd 2017 any guitar containing any rosewood (Appendix 2 or Appendix 1) now has to have a CITES Export permit from the country it's being exported from and then a CITES Import permit from the country it's being exported to.

Thing is, you first have to get a copy of the Export permit before you can apply for your Import permit, which means a delay of anything up to 2 to 3 months if everything goes according to plan.

Luckily in Japan the process is pretty quick, about 2 to 3 weeks for the Export permit.
China however takes a lot longer, in China they need two Export permits, one from Department of Forestry and one from the Environmental Department, takes about two months to get both.
Only then can you apply for your Import permit and depending on your country the delay can be at least a month or more.

However, if you're traveling with a guitar that contains rosewood (Appendix 2) you're OK as long as the total weight of the guitar is under 10kg.
If however you're traveling with a few guitars and the total weight (excluding cases) is more than 10kg you'll require a permit.
This doesn't apply to Brazilian Rosewood which is Appendix 1, you have to get a Re-Export permit if you're traveling with a guitar containing Brazilian Rosewood.

I can tell you that thousands of shipments/orders from the big manufacturers to countries all over the world are ON HOLD.
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Paladin2019
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. This certainly has a massive impact on the guitar world but I wonder what the other big markets for rosewood are?

Other instruments? Furniture?

Which industry caused enough damage to elicit this response?

I never liked rosewood anyway. I only own one guitar (out of 4) that has it. Even my Love Rock has an ebony board
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Diamond
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

US law enforcement recently found that Dalbergia was a major target of illegal activity
They found that 35% of the value of world wide seizures of illegally trafficked wild animals and plants was made up by Rosewood.

At the moment Ebony doesn't require Export/Import permits.

I've ordered the new Tokai CE80 and CE185 'Cats Eyes' acoustic models.
My first order has been completed and on hold now for nearly 2 months, first waiting for the CITES Export permit from Japan and now waiting for the Import permit here in SA...these were Rosewood models, both layered and solid.

However, I changed my second order to Mahogany back & sides (layered and solid) with Ebony fretboards, that way no permits required.
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Paladin2019
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This all makes for some fascinating Googling. The main driver for illegal trade appears to be luxury furniture for the fast-growing Chinese middle classes.

Meanwhile the guitar market is answering the challenge with 'baked' maple which actually looks pretty nice and is much more environmentally sustainable. I'm sure the purists will cry foul but I think it looks really good and will probably be more consistent in colour from one piece to the next. Tone-wise... well, nobody complains about having non-rosewood boards on things like the LP Custom.

And of course everyone on ebay will be flogging their no-name Chinese clone guitars with titles like "Rare pre-ban original rosewood!!!!!!11!!"
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Diamond
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paladin2019 wrote:


And of course everyone on ebay will be flogging their no-name Chinese clone guitars with titles like "Rare pre-ban original rosewood!!!!!!11!!"


True, but that seller on eBay will now have to get an Export permit and the buyer an Import permit before a sale can be made.

Imagine how many online sales from all countries (one country to another) are just going to fizzle out because of the hassle the seller and buyer now have to go through to make the deal.

True about the furniture scenario, CITES should have just banned all manufacture of furniture made of solid rosewood...think about how many fretboards could have been made from that one solid rosewood dining room table.
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ibicus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree that it is necessary to protect plants and animals before they are gone completely from this planet.What I do not understand is that these regulations have been decided in 1992 but are valid for instruments produced long before.Means my 3 Greco EGF are illegal now as I cannot prove that they came to europe before 1992.Dalbergia nigra is protected since 1992 but my 3 guitars build in 1980 are affected from these regulations.It is crystal clear that the Super Reals have been produced from 79 to 82 only.I have to prove now they have been in Europe before 1992 or the rosewood has been harvested under legal conditions.Would be funny to ask Greco for such a statement...if anyone has the contact I sure will give it a try.Anyway I have no plans to sell one of my Grecos and thanks to some very clever politicians I have no chance to
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iainblack
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ibicus, do you have any digital photos or still photos that would date the guitars. Would these be accepted as proof?
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ibicus
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ian

Yes I have photos of the headstock with the serial that makes it easy to determine the year of production and it is no problem to prove that the super real series has been produced only until 82 but this will not help at all as long as the guitars came to europe after 92.Even if they were here before I need a bill or other confirmation to prove.By the way this is not a problem with japanese guitars but for all instruments containing those now protected wood.If you buy next week a genuine 59 burst with braz board from outside Europe and the needed papers are missing you are in trouble...there have been several cases in Germany where people sold prs guitars from the late 80s or early 90s with braz board and instead of a buyer the customs came and the guitars have been confiscated...
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iainblack
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I mean photos that would show the guitars in europe before that date eg with a newspaper or some way of showing it was there if you dont have a receipt. i have pictuires of my Squier Strat with me when I was 18 so this would date it as being in the UK in 1983
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ibicus
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah ok Ian now I understand what you mean.No nothing like this available.Could ask Mark but I have my doubts he can help with the documents.
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guitar hiro
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the thread is not specific to 'Tokai Guitars'

the subject is specific to ALL guitar brands that contain any Rosewood genus Dalbergia lumber that are imported/exported, as of January 2, 2017

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23576
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ibicus
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guitar hiro wrote:
the thread is not specific to 'Tokai Guitars'

the subject is specific to ALL guitar brands that contain any Rosewood genus Dalbergia lumber that are imported/exported, as of January 2, 2017

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23576


Of course it is...
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