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1979 Breezysound authentication
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Oshbosh
Plucker


Joined: 07 Sep 2014
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:27 am    Post subject: 1979 Breezysound authentication Reply with quote

Hi there,

i'm just new to the forum so nice to be here and many thanks in advance for your help.

The reason i've joined is that i've just sold a 1979 Breezysound on ebay and the buyer has just raised some questions about its authenticity which i am unable to answer.

I bought the guitar some years ago as 100% original however the buyer has some concerns that Tokai did not make a sunburst TE-80 with maple neck.

Can anyone help shed some light on this?

Many thanks !

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121413990228&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:GB:1123
[/img]
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Reborn Old
Guitar God


Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 481

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum !
I wish it was under happier circumstances.

There is a very remote chance, the buyer could be right, but I'm inclined to believe it's a "made in Japan exception" to the general TE finish rule.
Burst finishes were generally used on copies of later 1959 to mid 60's Fender models, which should come with a rosewood fretboard instead of a maple fret board, but yours has the earlier 5 screw pick guard instead of a later copy 8 screw pick guard, and earlier round string tree instead of a later butterfly type, so hardware is consistent with yours being an earlier pre 58 copy with a burst finish.
I've seen other pics of your burst/maple board combination.

It has a legit 1979 Tokai neck plate. The one piece Ash body and "80" stamp at the base of the neck mean both pieces are from a legit Tokai TE-80 model.
The odds of one rare TE-80 neck being swapped for another on such a rare model are more remote than chances of finish exceptions.

I would slide the pick guard off and see if there are 3 extra unused screw holes along guard edges.
If only 5 screw holes as found on pre 58 copies, I would deem the guitar to be all original as you stated in your auction.

I hope you can convince the buyer he bought a treasure and not a partscaster, because unfortunately,
eBay tends to side with buyers in most disputes, no matter how frivolous or unfounded.

Best of luck !


Last edited by Reborn Old on Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:57 am; edited 3 times in total
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felixcatus
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Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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Location: Antwerp, Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reborn Old wrote:


It has a legit 1979 Tokai neck plate. The one piece Ash body and "80" stamp at the base of the neck mean both pieces are from a legit Tokai TE-80 model.


Is it a one piece body? In the photos it looks like there's a center seam?
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Reborn Old
Guitar God


Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 481

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was actually just looking at the neck plate shot when you posted Felix.
I'm not 100% sure, but yeah, I would make sure there is no body center seam.
A 6 barrel bridge is usually found on TE-70 and lower models. 3 barrels on TE-80+ models.
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Len
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Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Location: Hamburg / Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to me the guitar looks absolotely legit.
I had 2 of them. GS finish 1 piece body + maple neck. great guitars.

Pickup(s) should have TEA stamps on the bottom. 1 neck pickup of a TE-80 I owned was unstamped but original nonetheless (original soldering). The bridge pickup had the stamp.

6 barrel gold plated bridge is right for 1979 TE-80s , 6 barrel chrome plated bridge on lower models.
The 3-barrel bridge was not used on any model until 1981 !!
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Barks67
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Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 271
Location: Leeds UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why ask questions now when the opportunity was there on offer in the listing? Slight wiff of opportunity playing the ebay rules.
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Oshbosh
Plucker


Joined: 07 Sep 2014
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for all your help guys, the buyer is happy now and so am i!

I've got a beautiful Springy which i must post photos of, 3T Red SB, rosewood, ST-60 and a grain like its on fire, pure Jimi!

thanks again !

Osh
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Reborn Old
Guitar God


Joined: 11 May 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad it worked out Osh. Good luck with the Springy.

Len wrote:
to me the guitar looks absolotely legit.
6 barrel gold plated bridge is right for 1979 TE-80s , 6 barrel chrome plated bridge on lower models.
The 3-barrel bridge was not used on any model until 1981 !!


Thanks Len, I wasn't aware of that change in bridge barrels.
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Peter Mac
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Sorry my reply couldn't be under better circumstances. . .

OK, one major thing wrong with this guitar - the serial number being the one. It is from a 1979 ST model, made some time in the first 3rd of the year. The earliest Breezys were made after Nov'79 but most have 1980 serial# which I would imagine this one is. As the plate spacing is the same with '79, it is possible to swap them.
The bridge is original, body is one of the 4 finishes made available for TE-80 (BB, BL, GS, N) so it seems that - other than the serial number - it is quite a nice guitar. '79-'80 Breezysounds had either Maple or Rosewood boards.
Check for stamps on base of neck and under control panel to authenticate matching body/neck and the TEA stamps on the pickup base. Neck should have a 'V' feel to it and the body should have a Nitro finish.

Tokai officially launched the Breezy in April 1980 but according to serial numbers, models were released earlier - but not as early as 9005420. This number sits between 9005396, 9005422 and 9005424 which are an ST run of guitars, hence my earlier comment. Earliest Breezy number I have listed is 9010058 and the next 0006981 and 0007394.

regards
Peter Mac
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Reborn Old
Guitar God


Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 481

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure how reliable this is, because I didn't have # plate pics for most of these ...

1979 Breezy numbers I have listed include #'s:
9005011, 9005249, 9005259, 9005489,

9009945 => 9010130

FWIW, there is a large gap in 1979 LS serial numbers populated only by Fender models from about 9004000 => 9004950 and I think Breezy's were assigned number plates starting right after this ~950# range, or at the tail end of it. I show a mix of Breezy's and Silverstars in # ranges after 9005011, not just one model or the other. YRMV


Last edited by Reborn Old on Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jacco
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Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 2871
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On holiday so don't have my laptop with but my findings are consistent with Reborns.
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Oshbosh
Plucker


Joined: 07 Sep 2014
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi everyone,

only reading these additional comments today and it seems there is now some question over the authenticity of the neck plate in relation to the serial number?

The buyer has been reading this thread and now believes this is a partscaster and has now asked for his money back, which i am happy to do if there is an issue so i'd like to ask for your help again if i may.

It seems from the posts above that Len, Reborn Old and jacco think the serial numbers are consistent for a breezy of this vintage ? Peter Mac, can i ask what you think about the other views that it could still be original?

There is also the question of the two piece body. From this catalogue photo and spec you can see that TE-80s were made with 2 piece bodies.

http://www.tokairegistry.com/images/catalogs/oldies_p4.jpg

korpus --- esche --- 2 teile = body, ash, 2 pieces.

guitars 3 &4 are the TE-80s. Also the neck and body were both available in the sunburst / maple neck configuration if you do the translation which is consistent with earlier comments.

Any help is greatly appreciated

Oshbosh
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bluejeannot
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Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 1611
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question remains though, why would anyone want to swap the neck plate on this guitar, if both neck ,body and hardware are all consistent with the model and age? Isn`t more likely to be a factory mix up?
After all it would hardly be the first one we have come across.
I own two myself including a 78 St 60 Springy with E pickups and 50 stamped neck and an 84 Goldie St 80 with Tokai rather than Deluxe stamped tuners.
Wouldn,t the balance of probabilities favour the explanation that the fitting of the Springy neckplate on this breezy happened at source?

Gabe.
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Last edited by bluejeannot on Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:47 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Len
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Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Location: Hamburg / Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Mac wrote:


Tokai officially launched the Breezy in April 1980 but according to serial numbers, models were released earlier - but not as early as 9005420. This number sits between 9005396, 9005422 and 9005424 which are an ST run of guitars, hence my earlier comment. Earliest Breezy number I have listed is 9010058 and the next 0006981 and 0007394.


Peter I think a breezy serial number that early is totally normal.

I have owned this 1979 TE-80, serial 9005178 - sold it earlier this year. Matching codes, Original solder on the electrics, original everything... one of the best Tokais I have had the pleasure to own It even had a red TE-80 stamp in the neck pocket (hint to buyer of Oshbosh?s tele: some early Tokais have the red model number stamps, but it?s not a must for an all original TE-80) .. and of course 80 stamped onto the neck.
The neckplate was very evenly oxidized along with the control plate and the neck pickup cover. I don?t believe the neck plate on this breezy or on 9005420 was changed.
I still have a 1980 TE-80 with the same specs, so I do know how they are built and how the original parts look.




Quote:

There is also the question of the two piece body. From this catalogue photo and spec you can see that TE-80s were made with 2 piece bodies.

http://www.tokairegistry.com/images/catalogs/oldies_p4.jpg
I think some things got lost in translation for this catalog page (TE-85 is described as "Rosewood body" and TE-50s are described as having a V-shape neck. Just wrong ). It?s a catalog page for later TE models as well. Not much to do with 1979 teles..
Are you or the buyer sure it?s a 2 piece body ? ... straight grain lines can be misleading. 1 piece body is the norm for 1979 TE-80s.
Please let the buyer take pictures of the body and neck codes and post them here. They should be matching or very close. This should bring further clarification about neck & body belonging together. Pictures of the pickups and neck pocket are welcome too.

If the buyer still isn?t happy... take it back and refund the money. It?s worth more than the selling price anyway
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bluejeannot
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Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1
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